RL Anger

Arkandel · Apr 25, 2016, 6:40 PM

@Arkandel - At least you don't quite jump on the hate-wagon. I even said that it's probably a legit reaction, several times over, but that it's simply not the reaction that I would have personally chosen to apply, because I tend to think in a different way, and that -potentially- there is another valid way to look at it. Why is that so wrong?

I don't waste my time hating people on forums. It's not even that entertaining on a Monday, when my hatred pool is nearly full.

The error in your reasoning is in thinking like a recipient. You're assuming what your reaction would be if what happened to @mietze happened to you - which is of course different since most of us react in different ways to the same thing. So you'd have been cool about it, there's nothing wrong with that part.

I was attempting to point out that, as someone to whom such a thought might occur ("this is a person I literally haven't seen iRL in 30 years ever since she was a child, so let's look hard enough to track her down then drop in at her job and try to speak with her with notions of kindling some sort of romanticism between us") there are many layers of warning bells that should have prevented that from ever actually being realized. Entire parts of those plans should be giving off red flags as being social inappropriate - which is what makes it creepy.

Because the kind of person who ignored every single one of those bells and actually went through with it probably has some issues. Do you see where I'm coming from? The very act of going ahead with it is telling.

mietze · Apr 25, 2016, 6:44 PM

@Derp said in RL Anger:

@Arkandel - At least you don't quite jump on the hate-wagon. I even said that it's probably a legit reaction, several times over, but that it's simply not the reaction that I would have personally chosen to apply, because I tend to think in a different way, and that -potentially- there is another valid way to look at it. Why is that so wrong?

I don't hate you, I just think you're being an ass towards me. If you want to not be perceived that way, perhaps throwing in the "adulting" shit at someone isn't the way to do that. Since you know, you catch more flies with honey than vinegar. And up until you tossed that garbage my way, I was owning MY reaction to stuff.

Have a different perspective. If you would be totally fine with someone who knew you for 1 week when you were 12 telling you all that shit and showing up somewhere when it was clear they were not welcome and needed an appointment, then that's your right. I would worry about you though, because I don't think that's very safe to be "okay" with or to be more worried about the other guy's perspective.

Also, 1 of my friends who was assaulted, and those robberies and rapes that happen that I know about in my professional community? They do/have happened to men too. I don't know a single LMP male or female that would not be freaked out by what happened to me, because of that, and because yes. /Objectively/ it is /weird/.

Arkandel · Apr 25, 2016, 6:41 PM

@HorrorHound said in RL Anger:

So, do you guys normally froth and bark at each other like this?

Sure, but for the most part it's well natured. I habitually disagree with people (who're wrong all the time, obviously) I have a lot of respect for.

Ganymede · Apr 25, 2016, 7:32 PM

@Derp said in RL Anger:

So, as noted, while Mietze is perfectly justified in her suspicion and actions, there is potentially another side of the story, here. One in which the man is not The Devil. And I was merely trying to make the point that, sometimes, people can show up and want to get in touch with no moustache-twirling involved.

I hope you can see that what's happening on the man's side here is irrelevant. If @mietze is justified in her reaction, then that's where the discussion ought to stop.

But, on the man's side for a moment: if you lack the social awareness that showing up at someone's work to compliment them on something that occurred 30 years ago is not the right thing to do, then, as I think I said in another topic, you're too stupid to remain alive.

Stupidity and innocence are two different concepts.

Kanye Qwest · Apr 25, 2016, 8:45 PM

@Arkandel said in RL Anger:

@Kanye-Qwest said in RL Anger:

Seriously, @mietze, you need to lighten up and learn to take a compliment. Maybe if you ask nicely (or just state your own perspective) Derp will tell you how should react to things.

You make me facepalm even when I'm agreeing with you. You do the cause you're trying to defend more damage than good by defending it the way you do.

Wait. Which cause am I damaging (instead of defending), here?

deadculture · Apr 25, 2016, 8:53 PM

If @mietze had no contact with this individual prior to that, it is admittedly something extremely unsettling to say the least, especially if he admitted to arranging it beforehand. Further, who the fuck has the lack of social graces to think hitting someone up for conversation 30 years later is a good idea?

mietze · Apr 25, 2016, 9:02 PM

Here's another angle to consider too. I've spend much of the day crafting a very professional and concise "I cannot by the ethical standards expected of me by my profession accept you as a client, but I can can direct you to other professionals who may be able to. Please do not come to my place of business without an appointment, as it is posted on our door all sessions are by appointment only and it's inappropriate to loiter otherwise. I am not interested in further contact with you." Sort of statement.

However, yes, in addition to maybe not giving this guy a chance to explain his side of the story, it is also a fact that declining a client strongly (or firing someone) is often a trigger for violence. This guy is unlikely to catch me at work unless he's physically stalking me. But there are two other people in my suite that have more regular hours and are around more. It's not only me that's endangered if that happens.

So I have to be a careful wordsmith, warn my suite mates to keep an eye out. It's possible they may not renew my lease in a month or so and I can't blame them--they have to make safety considerations too, we are all solo practioners in an office park that's somewhat private.

Does this satisfy you that I'm still keeping the feelings/considerations of this poor man on the table, @Derp? Adulting enough for you? Or did you not realize the very real and pragmatic if not "fair" to me a stalking incident like this has towards not only my person but also my livelihood because workplace violence is a thing, it has nothing to do with who's got a penis or not, and it is a reality that all business owners have to take into consideration?

I would say the odds are that the guy will leave me alone. But I can't be sure, and as @arkandel explained better than I, it is his crossing so many boundaries to get this point that means I cannot assume nor is it ethical for me to assume that this is something that's just harmless--because there's not just me involved.

Arkandel · Apr 25, 2016, 9:04 PM

@Kanye-Qwest said in RL Anger:

@Arkandel said in RL Anger:

@Kanye-Qwest said in RL Anger:

Seriously, @mietze, you need to lighten up and learn to take a compliment. Maybe if you ask nicely (or just state your own perspective) Derp will tell you how should react to things.

You make me facepalm even when I'm agreeing with you. You do the cause you're trying to defend more damage than good by defending it the way you do.

Wait. Which cause am I damaging (instead of defending), here?

You are too eager to jump down people's throats and throw sarcastic, hostile comments around when you disagree with them; it seems important to you that there are sides, that there is a conflict, and that someone is out to get you so you're hitting back as hard as possible.

This makes it hard to hold a dialogue. Other people aren't the enemy, every argument doesn't need to be turned into a personal attack.

Ganymede · Apr 25, 2016, 9:11 PM

@Arkandel said in RL Anger:

You are too eager to jump down people's throats and throw sarcastic, hostile comments around when you disagree with them; it seems important to you that there are sides, that there is a conflict, and that someone is out to get you so you're hitting back as hard as possible.

This makes it hard to hold a dialogue.

Then don't.

Some people don't want to engage in a dialogue.

Kanye Qwest · Apr 25, 2016, 9:14 PM

I wasn't championing a cause, and the only one I have championed here is feminism/gender equality. If me being antagonistic to some dorks on an internet message board is damaging to FEMINISM then crap, maybe women don't deserve equal rights.

But why not just say you find my attitude or demeanor distasteful? I mean, you have. Repeat it, for better accuracy? Or, I don't know, just ignore me. You don't get me, probably don't want to, and that's fine. You have not even correctly guessed at what I'm doing here - specifically here, in this thread!

But you're right, I am being very hard to dialogue with. On purpose. With forethought.

Arkandel · Apr 25, 2016, 9:14 PM

@Ganymede <looks around>

What else is there to do here?

Apos · Apr 25, 2016, 9:20 PM

@Arkandel The problem is you think it's an even dialogue, and it really isn't. What @Derp is doing is not reasonable, not friendly, and not even handed, and to think so illustrates an extremely large degree of bias. That is why it is appropriate for him to be mocked, since he is attempting to present it in that way.

"Hey, someone that's been assaulted before is talking about someone acting creepy that's making her feel unsafe. Now is my time to chime in that not all men are creepy and maybe that guy didn't mean harm." While that qualifies under 'no fucking shit', saying so demonstrates such a mind boggling cruelty that even if it wasn't coupled with a lecture to older and wiser heads on 'how to adult', it would have been despicable.

So yes, he should have been mocked, and I devoutly hope if he says something as jaw dropping-ly idiotic in the future he is again.

deadculture · Apr 25, 2016, 9:23 PM

I think you defeat that sort of lapse in rationale with good arguments, not mockery.

Mockery only serves to infuriate and dig one's personal view further into a trench.

And I don't think @Derp was being willfully cruel; I think he missed the part where context matters to the discussion at hand, that this individual had no prior contact with @mietze, and that he out of the blue decided to show up at her workplace. I would have felt unsafe, whether or not I had been the victim of assault or not.

Arkandel · Apr 25, 2016, 9:23 PM

@deadculture said in RL Anger:

I think you defeat that sort of lapse in rationale with good arguments, not mockery.

Mockery only serves to infuriate and dig one's personal view further into a trench.

Yes, basically. If someone is wrong you attack the arguments, not the person.

What does mockery achieve? Sure, it makes you feel better for a couple of minutes but so what?

Apos · Apr 25, 2016, 9:24 PM

@deadculture said in RL Anger:

I think you defeat that sort of lapse in rationale with good arguments, not mockery.

Mockery only serves to infuriate and dig one's personal view further into a trench.

I actually disagree. If someone has a fundamental lapse in understanding then it is frankly easier to jar them out of a comfort zone with shock, particularly if they think they are being reasonable and adult and are speaking from a position of false authority that is patronizing and they are doing real harm without realizing it.

Arkandel · Apr 25, 2016, 9:27 PM

@Apos But are they jarred out of it? If I responded to your disagreement with insults for example it'd have been as likely to put you on the defensive and just dismiss everything I'm saying ('Arkandel is just a fucking idiot' - you might actually have been right about that ) as to actually take what I argued under consideration.

It's very difficult to look at someone calling you names and admit they have a point at the same time, you know?

deadculture · Apr 25, 2016, 9:29 PM

@Apos I think you and I will diverge on what constitutes harm in regards to this issue. I will say this: it didn't seem to work in this instance. And the moment mocking starts, one could just assume a rhetorical stance in which their initial premise becomes more and more extreme, to provide a counterpoint to your attempt to jar them out of their viewpoint. Which is a dick move in the realm of argumentation, but then, so is being mocked. I find being objective and framing the argument you want to drive forwards within the context it is meant, without attacking the individual, to be more effective.

Apos · Apr 25, 2016, 9:37 PM

@Arkandel said in RL Anger:

@Apos But are they jarred out of it? If I responded to your disagreement with insults for example it'd have been as likely to put you on the defensive and just dismiss everything I'm saying ('Arkandel is just a fucking idiot' - you might actually have been right about that ) as to actually take what I argued under consideration.

It's very difficult to look at someone calling you names and admit they have a point at the same time, you know?

While the last 20 pages have been kind of depressing, I think the whole, 'Wait I'm doing harm by my posts and people are getting upset at me because I am unconsciously belittling their life experiences' and people in turn getting insulting actually very clearly was getting through a lot faster and more clearly than the more reasoned and calm arguments that were posted earlier.

@deadculture Yeah we'll probably disagree on what makes harm. But look, a lot of the posts weren't trying to start a dialogue and win converts, and that's the problem. It was people reflecting on their life experiences and shitty things that happened to them, and it was a lot like some random asshole barging into a conversation of people that all had been mugged to chide them on not being safe when the dude lives in a safe neighborhood. The conversation should have just been, 'hey, that happens, keep an eye out, but it isn't about you', but guys were very desperately trying to make it about them. If you don't wanna say harmful, I definitely wouldn't say it was helpful either.

deadculture · Apr 25, 2016, 9:40 PM

@Apos I will be more than happy to say it was unhelpful; the sort of conversation where you relate your negative experiences about violence doesn't tend to be the positive discussion type, anyhow. In those cases, sometimes it's best to just let go of the urge to talk about it and wait until the topic changes.

Kanye Qwest · Apr 25, 2016, 9:42 PM

@deadculture
Or you can say "that sucks that that happened to you. Are you ok?"

Human beings do not require lectures to accept comfort.