Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes

Thenomain

This is sometimes called "going from zero to one", which involves effort and is often difficult.

Ganymede

@surreality said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

"What do you want to do?"
"I dunno, what do you want to do?"
"Anything's fine."
"Anybody got any ideas?"
<silence>

This sounds like the beginning of a scene to me; likely from a Cheech and Chong movie.

Arkandel

@surreality Well, sure, but derailing/overcrowding an existing scene isn't a solution to that problem. Starting a new one is.

I don't understand why it's such a problem to just pick a different location. It's not like people idling in the OOC room suddenly felt a great desire to go to Joe's Bar, the only attraction about it is there are already people present. If they go to Jim's Bar with the other 2 idling folks there will be people there, too.

Thenomain

@Arkandel

What, you can't sit at a table and have your own scene? Do people not use "places" code anymore?

faraday

@Thenomain said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

What, you can't sit at a table and have your own scene? Do people not use "places" code anymore?

I haven't seen a single soul use places code since, like, Y2K.

ixokai

@Kanye-Qwest said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

@Arkandel

If they'd all just shown up in a public space to rp, maybe they would!

Honestly, I don't even know what points are left to make here. Some people seem to think politeness demands you ask permission OOC before even posing into an open, public room (which I am vehemently opposed to).

You're putting a whole lot of hard weight behind what people have repeatedly said is a courtesy, or politeness. It doesn't "demand you ask permission". It suggests that its polite to take other people's involvement into account. But, in essence, yes. Sorry you're opposed to it. Don't know what to tell you.

Some people seem to think you should ask permission OOC before butting in to someone's /scene/ specifically. As in, not to pose in to the bar but to pose sitting down at your table and joining - which is common sense, but could also be done IC.

I have literally no idea where you're getting this.

@Thenomain said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

@Arkandel

What, you can't sit at a table and have your own scene? Do people not use "places" code anymore?

No. I hate places. I have always hated places. I want nothing to do with places. And on games that do pervasive logging, places is a nuisance.

TNP

Why not start another scene? Maybe because you want to play with those other people? Either there are things to RP about or you've never met before and want to. Could be new to the game/character and want to get settled. Could be a bunch of reasons. Now if said hypothetical people NEVER started their own scenes, that's different.

Thenomain

@ixokai said:

And on games that do pervasive logging, places is a nuisance.

This is because the logger isn't scanning places. This is an easy fix. A stupidly easy fix. Get someone to fix it.

The problem with not using places is that it allows a location (a setting) can then be used for multiple scenes. On games big enough where two groups of people want to be in the same location, this allows them to not "own" that location and still have separate scenes.

On games with this level of activity, places is a critical tool for sharing the setting.

Three-Eyed Crow

@Arkandel said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

... why on earth won't X+Y+Z, who are idlying and not part of any scene, for whom any scene would do, go off and make a scene of their own? Why does it need to be the one already in progress? Just start something, you have enough people!

This is always my question. Multiple ongoing scenes are better than one giant, semi-incomprehensible scene for me, every time.

Kestrel

@ixokai said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

This scenario just happened a moment ago and was relevant (lol, I wonder how many of you are in the scene or on the game and having this conversation simultaneously):

A pages B, C, D, E, and F: Room for another? Wanted to check before just joining!

<OOC> E is okay with it.
<OOC> C says, "I'm fine with it as well."
<OOC> B is having a hard enough time keeping up with you four "But I am willing to pose out and A to come in since I think E has accomplished what he wants with me in this scene.
<OOC> E says, "That's okay. If it's too big for you, we can just say so."
<OOC> C says, "Well I was actually hoping for a nap, so I can pose out next round and she can take my place instead."
<OOC> E says, "Up to you, C. Can always ask her for a raincheck."
<OOC> D says, "I can handle one more but after that I'll have to flee"
<OOC> C says, "Eh, sleep seems real nice right about now, so I'll pose out next round and she can take my place."

You(D) paged A, B, C, E, and F with 'Sure, come along over.'

A arrives from the Apple Orchard.
A has arrived.

G pages F, C, E, D, and B: Hi, room for two more at the Village Centre?

<OOC> D laughs
<OOC> E says, "Now that's too big for me as well."
<OOC> C says, "Heyo, A! I'll be posing out this round, so you'll be taking my spot."
<OOC> A thumbs up.

You(D) paged G, F, C, E, D, and B with 'We you but half of us would have to bail then because the scene's just about its limit for our available attention right now.'
G pages F, C, E, D, and B: No worries.

Did A or G have to page? No. But had they not, three people would have joined the scene, and multiple people would have left. The end result would be a different scene. Is that good or bad? What if A or G wanted to RP with someone who was going to leave due to overcrowding and attention-limits? Or, what if the existing scene just basically ends as a result of the people coming in, at which point A, G and the remainders are basically starting a new scene? At that point, is there really any value for anyone's fun if that new scene just gets started in another place? Does place really matter?

(And should B, C, D, E and F decided to take their scene private? Then A and G wouldn't be able to join them either. Is that a better outcome?)

So, hey, I'd like to shed some more light on this situation.

Also, hi! I'm G! Now you all know who I am.

I totally understand why you did not want another two people joining. And I knew, even when I was asking, that there was a chance the answer would be 'no', given that I know that at least two of the five who were already involved in that scene often have very demanding real lives which mean that in those rare moments when I do get to RP with them, they're prone to being distracted and may have to leave at a moment's notice. I get that.

My reason for asking anyway if I (and a plus one) could join is that I was in a one-on-one scene with an unseen H. H is a new player and a terrific, engaging writer whom I've recently persuaded to join the MUSH. So engaging and wonderful is H that H isn't even a friend of mine, but a relative stranger whom I'd only ever had one scene with on another MUD, a scene that was so memorable it ended up being noted in my character's timeline and, six months down the line, we 'ran into each other' in a gaming chatroom and I said, 'Holy shit, it's you, H! You're one of the best writers I've encountered. You should come play the 100 MUSH with me —' and he did.

Like me, H is fairly new to MUSHes on the whole. To start things off nice and easy, we had our one-on-one scene in a quiet public spot where I introduced him to my character and he did vice versa. His character then said, IC, 'So, aren't you going to introduce me to your friends at the Village Centre?' To which my character said, 'Sure'. OOCly, however, you can imagine me breaking into a sudden sweat. I told him OOCly that I would page to ask first, because it is polite to do so, and, well, we got our response, which I expected.

<OOC> Kestrel (G) says, "There's a group of 5 at the Village Centre, you want to join them or fade?"
<OOC> H says, "I'm down to join them, if you are!"
You (Kestrel/G) paged F, C, E, D, and B with 'Hi, room for two more at the Village Centre?'
<OOC> Kestrel (G) says, "Paged them"
D pages Kestrel (G), F, C, E, D, and B: We you but half of us would have to bail then because the scene's just about its limit for our available attention right now.
F pages Kestrel (G), C, E, and B: I'm actually having to duck out, if that matters!
You paged F, C, E, D, and B with 'No worries.'
<OOC> Kestrel (G) says, "They said no, heh. Scene too full."
<OOC> H says, "Oh! Well, alright then, I guess we fade!"

You paged H with 'I'd ask around later if there are any lone Grounders interested in RPing at the village, for a smaller scene.'
H pages: Yeah, I will, probably. That actually really turns me off, honestly. One of the reasons I don't care for MUSHes as much.

I you guys too, really I do, and I hope you won't take me posting this as a 'fuck you, I'm so mad that you didn't let us join'. But can you see how the environment fostered by this particular etiquette standard might come across as very nerve-wracking and unwelcoming? Me, I could take it or leave it — and to your credit, you paged me later when the scene was less full to let me know that I could now join if I wanted to. But I felt pretty bad for H, who had by then already logged off. I was hoping to introduce him to a group of awesome RPers. But it can be awkward for people to approach OOCly this way.

P.S.: Those of you playing this MUSH, now that you know who I play — if you see me making any of the confusing faux pas mentioned in this thread, feel free to page me and I'll strive to correct any mistakes.

Arkandel

@Thenomain Places code also has some disadvantages. For example (IIRC, I can't check at the moment) every pose has to start with your name.

Sure, code can overcome such limitations but the real problem is cultural, not technical. As usual.

faraday

@Kestrel I see a big difference between "We you but half of us would have to bail then because the scene's just about its limit for our available attention right now." and "Scene too full." though. I can't help but wonder if your friend would have reacted the same if he'd gotten the full answer. Or if the A-F players had gone the extra mile and said: "But a couple of us are dropping out soon if you'd like to come in soon..." or "Happy to give you a raincheck though when it's not so late..." or whatnot.

On an unrelated aside, having a scene segue into "Let's go talk to Bob..." when Bob isn't available is a pretty common problem in MUSHing that you can learn to work around with practice. Then the scene doesn't have to come to an abrupt end, which also probably improves the overall outcome of a situation like that.

Ganymede

@Kestrel said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

But can you see how the environment fostered by this particular etiquette standard might come across as very nerve-wracking and unwelcoming?

Not really.

I try to imagine what it would have been like if you and H just showed up at the scene, only to see everyone else bolt. I don't see that as coming off as inclusive either. Communicating one's personal preferences ought not turn someone off, in my opinion.

But we all have preferences. I don't like PennMUSH, for instance. I really hate it. It's not rational. I also have a thing for redheads. There's probably some rationale to that, but I don't know what it is.

You know what gets me about the response, though? "Our available attention." What the fuck is that supposed to mean, right?

Thenomain

@Arkandel said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

@Thenomain Places code also has some disadvantages. For example (IIRC, I can't check at the moment) every pose has to start with your name.

This discussion has moved here: http://musoapbox.net/topic/1062/better-places-code/

In short, the 'pipe' can be used for emits. I believe this has always been true for classic Places, but like Anomaly Jobs, documentation and culture surrounding the use of this older code can be anything from mildly frustrating to utter WTF.

@Kestrel said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

You paged H with 'I'd ask around later if there are any lone Grounders interested in RPing at the village, for a smaller scene.'
H pages: Yeah, I will, probably. That actually really turns me off, honestly. One of the reasons I don't care for MUSHes as much.

I you guys too, really I do, and I hope you won't take me posting this as a 'fuck you, I'm so mad that you didn't let us join'. But can you see how the environment fostered by this particular etiquette standard might come across as very nerve-wracking and unwelcoming?

Can you please frame the example situation as it would happen on a MUD? That is, you asked someone if you could come to their house, they said nope sorry too busy, and that's off-putting to you. What is your cultural expectation?

ixokai

@Kestrel said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

I you guys too, really I do, and I hope you won't take me posting this as a 'fuck you, I'm so mad that you didn't let us join'. But can you see how the environment fostered by this particular etiquette standard might come across as very nerve-wracking and unwelcoming? Me, I could take it or leave it — and to your credit, you paged me later when the scene was less full to let me know that I could now join if I wanted to. But I felt pretty bad for H, who had by then already logged off. I was hoping to introduce him to a group of awesome RPers. But it can be awkward for people to approach OOCly this way.

Honestly, if you had said it was a new person, the outcome may have been different. I know a lot of people go out of their way to try to be accommodating to new people.

That said, also honestly? No, I can't see how it is nerve-wracking or unwelcoming (which you may interpret as hypocritcal or inconsistent with my previous statement and that might be fair). I don't see how OOC communication makes people nervous. I talk to people OOC all the time, working out back-story hooks, talking about RP preferences, shooting the shit about random stuff.

I mean, yes, I recognize that you're saying its awkward and that you find it nerve-wracking, and I respect your right to feel whatever you feel. I just don't see those feelings as ... making sense Is that a good way to put it? Probably not since when does feelings make sense?

I don't know. I've been MUSHing for 22 years. I probably can't see the forest for the trees anymore.

Kestrel

@Thenomain said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

Can you please frame the example situation as it would happen on a MUD? That is, you asked someone if you could come to their house, they said nope sorry too busy, and that's off-putting to you. What is your cultural expectation?

OOCly, it wouldn't happen.

My character would go to, say, Bob's house, Bob's house being somewhere on the grid where I can find it. The character would knock on the door, which he may not answer for any number of reasons:

Bob isn't home. (Although usually there's some means by which I'd be able to learn this IC before heading there.)
Bob is AFK or busy IRL.
Bob is at home, but cannot come to the door because he is literally tied up by a burglar or is busy banging Suzie.

If Bob is a friend OOCly, he might drop me a quick tell saying, 'Hey, love to RP, but I'm cooking dinner right now / Bob can't come to the door.' There is no expectation that he should do this, but he might.

Whatever the excuse is doesn't matter. My character still knocked on the door, ICly, and for whatever reason, Bob didn't answer.

Later, when I run into Bob IC, my character will say, 'Hey Bob, I swung by your house earlier, but you didn't answer. What's up? Were you too busy banging Suzie?'

Bob will reply ICly saying, 'No, your mother', 'A burglar came in!' 'Sorry, I was asleep', or something similar. If OOCly he's promised to RP with me at some point and is sorry he couldn't earlier, that may still happen, but it wouldn't change that at this particular time, my character knocked and he didn't answer. We may turn this into fuel for conflict or my character may say, 'That's OK, I understand', and they get over it. There's no anxiety in the approach because whatever happens, happens. The story will still be driven forward around this incident.

A better example though would be that Bob is having an open house party at his place. It's crowded enough that people are saying they might leave soon, because they don't like big scenes. There would still be no expectation that I should ask if I could join — my character would roll up to his house and walk in. Two people might leave for an adjoining room. I might even leave for an adjoining room. Or Bob, ICly, might say, 'Hey KestrelCharacter, we don't want you joining our party', and he'll shove my character out the door. We may have a fight on the front lawn.

A MUD I recently played had place code, which I liked a lot, as it meant that my character could join this party, go talk to someone on the sofas, get bored, then go talk to someone at the buffet table instead. Everyone you see in this room is basically 'open to RP' because they're online and IC (there is no OOC lounge), but to avoid having to focus on too many things at once, you can split the scene into multiple sub-scenes for various, dynamic groups within. I may go from place to place and roleplay with everyone in the room in a single evening, but only one at a time, and not have to be inundated with the spam of people privately making out on the sofas while I'm standing at the buffet table. But with a quick look around the room, I can make myself vaguely aware of what's going on and pick and choose which information I want to see. (e.g., look sofa — oh hey, two people have set their shortdescs/roomtitles/looktexts to be eating each other's faces. I'll bring that up to my buffet partner conversation partner, and maybe clue in the sofa couple that they get the sense people are talking about them.)

Thenomain

@Kestrel said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

@Thenomain said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

Can you please frame the example situation as it would happen on a MUD? That is, you asked someone if you could come to their house, they said nope sorry too busy, and that's off-putting to you. What is your cultural expectation?

OOCly, it wouldn't happen.

So you wouldn't know where people were, and therefore you couldn't make the decision to join or not join.

Then your expectations are coming from something that is not related to MUD. Either that, or the situation you gave, stopping by someone's IC location, is different. How would it happen in a public sense?

more edits, I love the edits: I used to page everyone in a room with 'you hear a knocking at the door, knock knock'. This is partially because as I code, I know exactly how the code works.

Also, there's nothing wrong for you and your cohort stopping by the scene anyway, but if you want things to be more IC, how would you know to go there? Again, what were your expectations when you paged? How does your culture have it go?

Kestrel

@Thenomain said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

@Kestrel said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

@Thenomain said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

Can you please frame the example situation as it would happen on a MUD? That is, you asked someone if you could come to their house, they said nope sorry too busy, and that's off-putting to you. What is your cultural expectation?

OOCly, it wouldn't happen.

So you wouldn't know where people were, and therefore you couldn't make the decision to join or not join.

Then your expectations are coming from something that is not related to MUD. Either that, or the situation you gave, stopping by someone's IC location, is different. How would it happen in a public sense?

More or less like this:

@Kestrel said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

A better example though would be that Bob is having an open house party at his place. It's crowded enough that people are saying they might leave soon, because they don't like big scenes. There would still be no expectation that I should ask if I could join — my character would roll up to his house and walk in. Two people might leave for an adjoining room. I might even leave for an adjoining room. Or Bob, ICly, might say, 'Hey KestrelCharacter, we don't want you joining our party', and he'll shove my character out the door. We may have a fight on the front lawn.

A MUD I recently played had place code, which I liked a lot, as it meant that my character could join this party, go talk to someone on the sofas, get bored, then go talk to someone at the buffet table instead. Everyone you see in this room is basically 'open to RP' because they're online and IC (there is no OOC lounge), but to avoid having to focus on too many things at once, you can split the scene into multiple sub-scenes for various, dynamic groups within. I may go from place to place and roleplay with everyone in the room in a single evening, but only one at a time, and not have to be inundated with the spam of people privately making out on the sofas while I'm standing at the buffet table. But with a quick look around the room, I can make myself vaguely aware of what's going on and pick and choose which information I want to see. (e.g., look sofa — oh hey, two people have set their shortdescs/roomtitles/looktexts to be eating each other's faces. I'll bring that up to my buffet partner conversation partner, and maybe clue in the sofa couple that they get the sense people are talking about them.)

Translated into the scene @ixokai brought up, my character (G) and H would have walked into the village centre, where A & B may be talking privately at a stall, C may be milling around on her own and therefore an open invitation to RP, DEF may be in a huge crowd fighting. H and I would probably make a comment to one another about the fight, then approach C, etc.

Any rejection H and I experience (e.g., C may ICly say, 'How dare you intrude! Go away!') would not be taken as any kind of affront because IC is IC. It would, however, give H and I something to work with in terms of, 'oh, I guess the villagers here don't like us', and RP is still RP.

Pages do not come into it.

Mainly I think the difference is that on a MUD, RP is a lot more dynamic; there is a lot of code in place to make it so. In a MUSH, as clued in by the term 'shared hallucination' (instead of dungeon), it's make-your-own-fun, and unless you make it so, RP is static. Everyone in a room is expected to involve everyone there, and you cannot really move your character around without ending the RP taking place. (Conversely in a MUD, if you leave the room, I can follow you.)

It's a trade-off though because on MUDs the writing standard is a lot lower; people don't just use the code to facilitate RP, they rely on it like a crutch. Even the very best writers there get lazy, because why emote what code has already stated for you? I'm answering your questions because you're asking them, but that doesn't mean I think MUDs are better.

So I should probably clarify that when you ask what my cultural expectations are — I don't have any. I've walked into someone else's house, and they've asked me to take off my shoes, so my expectation is that I should take off my shoes. Even if, having now been exposed to their smelly feet, I would set a rule in my own house that they should keep their shoes on when they visit me in turn.

EDIT: I'm only editing typos and bad sentence structure. I swear.

ThatGuyThere

@Kestrel
I think one part that has been mentioned but deserves mentioning again is if in that situation and not asked just joined. Politeness aside, if 3 or the 5 present decide it is too big, which is what it sounds like would have happened and left, right as the new people showed up. Then how is that seen as more welcoming?
The end result is close to the same if not exactly.

Groth

@Kestrel said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

Mainly I think the difference is that on a MUD, RP is a lot more dynamic; there is a lot of code in place to make it so. In a MUSH, as clued in by the term 'shared hallucination' (instead of dungeon), it's make-your-own-fun, and unless you make it so, RP is static. Everyone in a room is expected to involve everyone there, and you cannot really move your character around without ending the RP taking place. (Conversely in a MUD, if you leave the room, I can follow you.)

Follow is a command in most MUSHes, it's not that uncommon for RP to move around between rooms. Many MUSH also have places code that work just like you're used to.