Making a MU* of your own

Apos · Jul 22, 2016, 7:00 PM

@surreality Yeah, that's how I pretty much see it, and I'm not really in love with the terms alpha/beta (I feel kind of pretentious using them), but I think it is helpful to give people an idea of what I'm doing and try to let them decide how comfortable they are playing in a game in an early state. Like if someone isn't comfortable with major systems coming in and their work possibly poofing or being completely changed a week later, I can't blame them for not wanting to play under those conditions and preferring to wait for it to be more settled in beta/release, but other people have a lot of fun with testing and breaking all the things and just shrug off anything being changed.

Tying into the rest of the thread, I think probably the biggest single source of conflict in the hobby is just people feeling like their time/effort isn't respected, whether they are a staff or player. So with that in mind, I figure I or anyone else running a game has to be really, really, really careful with making sure they don't ever give anyone the wrong idea where they think all their hard work is for keeps when it is potentially transitory.

surreality · Jul 22, 2016, 8:10 PM

It's also worth mention -- and maybe this is just me thinking too much in 'what I wanna do' terms here -- that I think games continue to be fleshed out more and more the longer they exist.

For example, I want this process to become a part of the game itself, in the current project. I want people to be able to develop unique areas and territories. I'm looking at a variety of means of encouraging this, too, not just before the doors open, but as an active and ongoing process, as a part of normal game operation and play. (Worldwide grid. There's room for this to happen. That choice alone has changed more than a few dynamics from square one, and giving people the freedom to create spaces of their own to whatever extent is a huge one.)

I like the idea of building these things into the game itself -- not just before it's open. I've seen various takes on this, but the amount of it that's most common is still somewhat limited.

Tangent alert: In part, I think people hate on building more than they once did; I 'grew up on' games where you could build a wee sprawl of your own as a territory and develop and encourage play there much more than the typically hyper-restricted and limited stuff I see a lot of in recent years. I also know how much people actively enjoyed that, and it was partly because they were contributing something to the larger reality of the game, but also because it was something that was uniquely theirs.

Sunny · Jul 22, 2016, 8:12 PM

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surreality · Jul 24, 2016, 7:02 PM

@Sunny That's pretty much exactly it, IMHO.

Generally:

Another thing to keep in mind here, and especially on this point: know your weaknesses.

I can be very good, or very very bad, at explaining any given thing.

Sometimes, this is going to mean 'time to crawl off to the dev cave and write the whole thing up because it's easier to point to it than to half-assedly explain the same thing a dozen times to people who ask before the draft is done'.

This doesn't make it carved in stone or impervious to input. It's just what more or less my entire life has shown me to be the case: sometimes, the example needs to exist before the concept can be most easily understood.

(Also, I get extremely frustrated when half a dozen people ask for info on something that isn't even a rough draft yet, and I know the above principle is going to kick in hard. I end up spending the hours I should spend writing up the draft explaining the same thing over and again to casually curious folks that the draft would answer ten times more clearly and allow them to direct their questions at specific aspects of it rather than as broad and nebulous concepts, and that gets to be a monumental waste of time on all sides. )

Sunny · Jul 24, 2016, 7:25 PM

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Shlappy · Jul 24, 2016, 7:33 PM

It's an exciting project, though. I think a lot of people will be happy with it.

Thenomain · Jul 25, 2016, 4:14 PM

@Shlappy

I'm cautiously optimistic. The lead doesn't seem able to take criticism well. Er, at least not on a board about criticism.

(n.b., this is exactly why I don't lead; I suck at taking criticism)

Fantom · Jul 24, 2016, 11:45 PM

Guess I'll throw my two cents in here as well.

It's so important to be organized. And not just notes on a yellow sticky organized, but ORGANIZED.

I have 2 binders I carry around with me when I travel, go home, at the office, where ever. One binder has all my data. Every object on my mush is in an excel spreadsheet, with description and location. Any objects connected to that object (db's for example) then branch down from there. I have a spreadsheet with all my planets, ships and HSpace coordinates. Because I have 2 other DBs from 2 other games I grab code or inspiration from, I also keep identical spreadsheets of their vnums for reference.

I then have spreadsheets for my factions, commercial businesses and black market/VIS. My chargen has a section, as does any third party soft code I have (volunds, Dahans etc). I also have a huge section on Rhost, which is basically some charts showing different functions between the two and pages and pages of conversations with @Ashen-Shugar

My other binder is data. Because I'm doing a Star Wars themed D6 game, I have 4 rule books and 4 add ons of WEG D6. I then have every dictionary, picture book, reference manual, visual dictionary possible relating to Star Wars and TFA series. This binder is big, almost 600 pages. It's all tabbed, so if I want to know if a certain planet is canon and what species are on that planet and where it is in the galaxy compared to Tatooine, it takes me maybe 30 seconds to look it up, no matter where I'm at.

I then have a 3rd smaller binder that has my website / tech stuff. Server stuff, and everything from my WIKI database spreadsheet to the web fonts I want to use to the bootstrap / css manual.

In my office I have 4 whiteboards that I use constantly to brainstorm, 3 monitors and 2 computers.

My todo list always sits front and Center, and being organized allows you to spend time coding or writing or building instead of scrambling around looking for something. It takes a long time to gather your materials and organize them in such a fashion, but imho it is worth it in the end.

Cheers

Shlappy · Jul 25, 2016, 3:53 AM

@Thenomain I think everyone has trouble with criticism periodically. It was originally a project I was brainstorming before lovely people came along to help me with all of the things I don't know how to do. Which is everything beyond plot-fu, if I'm to be honest. I'm optimistic, though. I'm not going to doom myself by over-hyping or anything. It'll provide some fun to a lot of folks, I'm fairly confident.

Thenomain · Jul 25, 2016, 4:30 AM

<retracted, possibly redacted>

surreality · Jul 25, 2016, 5:49 AM

@Sunny said in Making a MU* of your own:

The big one for me was learning when to just take the silence at 'really, whatever is good' and NOT letting it hold up my whole process until I could drag an opinion out of people who would have to COME UP WITH ONE so they could give my pouting ass the input I desired. It's become a LOT smoother of a process if I just toil along and assume that people are on board until they say otherwise (it's happened, and it's led to a few rewrites, but doing it this way keeps things moving for me).

I would offer to throw opinions at you if I wasn't buried myself. (I usually have too many. @tragedyjones can confirm, I'm sure. It sounds like we'd balance each other out!)

Truth be told, though, I would take this as a sign that you're doing something very right. It doesn't sound like the crowd you're working with is remotely apathetic -- so if there was an issue, it'd get mentioned.

Sunny · Jul 25, 2016, 4:14 PM

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Ganymede · Jul 25, 2016, 4:34 PM

@Sunny said in Making a MU* of your own:

I have a really good group of people, and the crowd of opinions is diverse enough that I get a lot of opposing viewpoints from different game cultures. It's been interesting so far.

I think the adage of "you can't please everyone all the time" is applicable to the current thread.

The problem with my approach, I suppose, is that I've sought little-to-no-input to date for my game, which allows me to put it indefinitely on a backburner, to my own chagrin.

Also, CHILDREN.

Looking forward to seeing what pops out.

Thenomain · Jul 25, 2016, 6:31 PM

@Sunny

Lotherio · Jul 25, 2016, 7:34 PM

@surreality said in Making a MU* of your own:

It's also worth mention -- and maybe this is just me thinking too much in 'what I wanna do' terms here -- that I think games continue to be fleshed out more and more the longer they exist.

For example, I want this process to become a part of the game itself, in the current project. I want people to be able to develop unique areas and territories. I'm looking at a variety of means of encouraging this, too, not just before the doors open, but as an active and ongoing process, as a part of normal game operation and play. (Worldwide grid. There's room for this to happen. That choice alone has changed more than a few dynamics from square one, and giving people the freedom to create spaces of their own to whatever extent is a huge one.)

I like the idea of building these things into the game itself -- not just before it's open. I've seen various takes on this, but the amount of it that's most common is still somewhat limited.

Tangent alert: In part, I think people hate on building more than they once did; I 'grew up on' games where you could build a wee sprawl of your own as a territory and develop and encourage play there much more than the typically hyper-restricted and limited stuff I see a lot of in recent years. I also know how much people actively enjoyed that, and it was partly because they were contributing something to the larger reality of the game, but also because it was something that was uniquely theirs.

Way belated and perhaps off topic now.

But this was the process behind Redemption. The fantasy world meets post-apoc future tech world place from nearly a decade ago. It was three main staff, then 6 folks were recruited as faction heads/IC leaders, taken from various places based on how well they could gather a play circle together. The idea was the would control liquid factions that could change, leadership, name, philosophy, they could take over other factions, incorporate other area, etc. etc.

It jumped off to a good start, with two of the three main area factions getting a lot of theme developed by the faction head and a few of the players joining those circles. It started development in December/January of and by that summer it was open for beta (wasn't just invite/word of mouth, still developing) with 120~ chars on a given day come August, top alts were 2-3 I believe. By September was the major crash and the slow decline over the next few years

A few things to take from what we learned, or should have learned, from this. Yes, player input was valuable, it allowed staff to focus on things like the code, the meta, and the larger picture, while players could readily develop as they played along.

It came down to choosing good players at the time that would attract a few players to play with them, and that were active enough that folks would want to join those factions because of the activity. The concept was solid and everyone wanted to play along to see where it went.

The problem, some faction heads were besties with staff (always an issue, alas), and they admitted they wouldn't give up anything, such as allow their char to die, or the IC reigns to pass into other players hands, or their 'territory' to change. This came up in the first staff head/faction head meeting. This drove away two major faction heads when they realized there was nothing to play if it would remain status quo.

I do miss the places players could contribute though, by adding to the grid, or coding objects. I remember the big problem back then, especially related to WoD, was the use of puppets and spying.

It would be good to see another project like this, however.

Roz · Jul 26, 2016, 1:43 AM

I've had players get mortally insulted at the idea that staff is not in the business of making every player happy. Some players have difficulty wrapping their heads around the idea that sometimes what a player wants is actually detrimental to the game as a whole. (Yet these players will generally have no issue identifying when a different player is doing something against the rules or something that messes up their RP.)

I strongly ascribe to the philosophy that it's not staff's job to make every player on their game happy, because that is, in fact, and impossible job. Better to focus on the more achievable goal of making the game as welcoming, fair-handed, and thematically cohesive as you can.

surreality · Jul 26, 2016, 2:41 AM

@Roz said in Making a MU* of your own:

I've had players get mortally insulted at the idea that staff is not in the business of making every player happy.

This is, I think, part of the reason the 'customer service model' for staffing is not particularly viable.

...especially because there are plenty of players who will never be happy no matter what you do (or don't do, or do to someone else, or don't do to someone else, etc.).

il-volpe · Jul 26, 2016, 8:10 AM

Do your damnedest to eradicate the notion that the game is a bloody 'service' at all. Hopefully you are doing it because it's your damn hobby, sir, which includes the boring bits to make it work out, but still isn't a job. You're sure not being paid, and I hope you're not doing it because MUers are a sad charity case who need your saintly volunteer efforts to bring much-needed entertainment to their tragic lives.

People will still assume you owe them a service, since that's not only a traditional model for MUSHes but also how it usually goes if a place is open to the public. But those ones develop selective illiteracy when you say that allowing or even encouraging people to pop in and play a game doesn't make you obliged to make it the game they want (at all, much less all the time) so they're just one of the boring bits of your hobby.

Thenomain · Jul 26, 2016, 8:34 AM

@Roz

I know you've been here for this over and over again, but it bears repeating: Staff is to facilitate fun, not beholden to it. This thread at this point could stand a link to Brus' Five Pillars of Good Staffing, as well.

Apos · Jul 26, 2016, 3:59 PM

Anyone that takes staff for granted like that generally are the same people that would never ask themselves, "This character concept/plot/RP is fun for me, but is it fun for anyone else to interact with?" I just don't understand. If the person making a character wouldn't want to interact with it, how can they expect anyone else to want to do so in a collaborative storytelling environment?