The State of the Chronicles of Darkness

[Arkandel]

@Miss-Demeanor said:

Edit: It never fails to amaze me how freely some people will give up info about where their particular splat hangs out/what they fear/what their weaknesses are/etc.

Instead of maximizing her Oaths, she could have just dug a few unmarked graves in the middle of nowhere for those wagging tongues. Once the word got out and the correlation between action and consequence was made clear, the practice would soon stop. If what they get for it is attention and extra RP, of course they do more of it.

But we all know where that kind of thing would lead OOC even if a PC was willing to take such rather reasonably justified actions.

[Miss Demeanor]

Precisely. I would have loved to have tossed a few bodies through a Hedge gate, but the OOC shitstorm that would have followed wasn't worth the aggravation.

[Arkandel]

@Miss-Demeanor said:

Precisely. I would have loved to have tossed a few bodies through a Hedge gate, but the OOC shitstorm that would have followed wasn't worth the aggravation.

Don't you think though that in many ways that explains, even justifies the phenomenon?

I'm not blaming you for anything here btw, obviously most sane players wouldn't want (and shouldn't have) to deal with something like this, but looking at it from those players' perspective this was an adventure! Once generic-you know with one hundred percent certainty you can go into deep shit and get out again with RP, attention and activity in the process will you really mind that what you did was utterly stupid IC? Characters do absurdly dumb things in books, movies and comics all the time, right?

On the flip side of this is Taliesin. Those involved in that mess probably remember the guy. He went around specifically and spread a bunch of IC secrets including who-was-what to nearly random people - my PC was one of those - then when people caught up to him with the intention of killing his character the guy flipped out. I can actually see why, too; no one else was getting busted for such shenanigans, why should he? It's unfair! In a way that makes sense.

Sometimes what we tolerate is what we encourage.

[The Tree of Woe]

@HelloRaptor You are not entirely incorrect. However, your not being entirely incorrect does not make me entirely wrong.

Juerg axed non-vampire PCs just for being around one.

Leka liked to sit around in the lounge and talk about killing vampires. When she wasn't RPing masturbating with plastic shopping bags and being told it was 'brilliant'.

Neither of these people ever attacked my toons. My beef, and my case, comes from watching their conduct with other people. Generally, when I caught shit for things I did, I deserved it -- though I didn't think so at the time, and some of those players can still, on a wholly personal level, eat all the dicks.

I take it you had a personal association with either Juerg or Leka/Ernst, since those were the players I mentioned that provoked you sniping at me? I'm not about to condemn you for that, because lots of people did.

[HelloRaptor]

@The-Tree-of-Woe said:

Juerg axed non-vampire PCs just for being around one.

Think for a moment of any of the qualities you and Juerg share, whether it be race, gender, liking a particular food, really anything at all. Now think about whether you would like anyone at all, anywhere, under any circumstances, to use Juerg as an example of behaviors common to people who share that quality.

Juerg is an amazingly huge asshat whose actions at large range from questionable to downright disgusting. It's like treating a serial child rapist who happens to be a clown as an example of why clowns are terrible and shouldn't be allowed around children.

Leka liked to sit around in the lounge and talk about killing vampires. When she wasn't RPing masturbating with plastic shopping bags and being told it was 'brilliant'.

How many vampires did she actually PK? Ten? Twenty? I know very little of Leka, but my impression was always that her rambling about offing vampires had nothing to do with picking on the little guy and everything to do with so many vampire players being such incredible tools that she liked rubbing their noses in it. It's also pretty meaningless if she wasn't actually going out following through on it, if she wasn't. I honestly have no idea.

Neither of these people ever attacked my toons. My beef, and my case, comes from watching their conduct with other people.

You're the one who said "I do not like being singled out by people like Leka, Ernst, and Juerg because I'm there." It's not terribly important whether or not they were the ones who pissed in your cornflakes in particular, but I don't feel like it was an unreasonable assumption to make.

Generally, when I caught shit for things I did, I deserved it -- though I didn't think so at the time, and some of those players can still, on a wholly personal level, eat all the dicks.

Right, which was... exactly what I said? I mean, that's pretty much exactly what I used those three quotes to emphasize, that despite claims to the contrary the vast majority of times people have been 'picking on vampires' it's because of shit those vampires did that deserved it. Not just because they were vampires, or because vampires are easy marks. While those may be motivations for some individuals, they are very, very few and far between.

I take it you had a personal association with either Juerg or Leka/Ernst, since those were the players I mentioned that provoked you sniping at me? I'm not about to condemn you for that, because lots of people did.

I sniped at you because you echoed a stupid premise that gets bandied about, which was that people just liked to pick on vampires because they were vampires, and because they were 'relatively easy to fight', neither of which usually has anything to do with shit people actually do to vampire PCs.

I don't think I really know any of those people outside of having read IC/OOC logs of Juerg, enough to be disgusted, and talking with Ernst here from time to time. I played on HM only for a couple of months at most, and never played with anyone outside of the Changeling sphere.

[Ganymede]

@HelloRaptor said:

Vampires don't get picked on because they're easy to fight, they get picked on because 1) they have a pretty terrible reputation for being mind raping* sadists, and 2) because more often than not the people playing them seem incapable of treating any non-vampires like anything but shit, despite evidence of just how poor an idea that is.

Let me add something: (3) vampire PCs are often played by fucking morons who are just begging to have their PCs gacked for doing incredibly stupid things.

[silentsophia]

I ... had no idea about the public masturbation scenes. I'm not sure how that's brilliant, but whatever. Nor do I see how plastic bags are sexy but your kink is not mine, etc. etc.

Also, seriously. Some vampires just begged to be gacked. Mr. I'm Gonna Antagonize The Friendly Adamantine Arrow for awhile was really tough to justify NOT torching his sorry backside.

[Miss Demeanor]

I'll say this much. If I play an antagonistic vampire (and I do, right now, on TR), its because I give no fucks if the character is killed. BUT. That said, I also realize that I made a character that would grate on many people and was likely to be attacked and/or killed. So while I have fun with her, I don't expect her to have a long shelf life or get too attached to her.

[Arkandel]

The only antagonistic PC I hate is the disposable kind. You know, played by the guy who makes an alt every month, usually in games that let you spend enough XP right out of CG. What does he care if RNG goes his way and he ends up killing your year+ old character (since of course he doesn't just throw a punch, he goes all out with WP, a specialization and imbued weapon) he met at a bar and picked a fight with?

Thankfully this doesn't happen much these days since, well, not much PKing happens much these days. But eh.

[ThatOneDude]

@Arkandel Man... I miss PK and I miss that guy, cause, nothing feels better than kicking his ass.

[Miss Demeanor]

I suppose I should say that I do not have her pick fights to PK people. I have not yet ever actually PK'd anyone in any game I've ever been on. Unless you want to count self-PK. I've totally put my own characters into situations where they will die.

[Biggles]

@HelloRaptor
A friend played a sleepwalker, she was OOC'ly talking with a Vampire in a room on grid, they both logged off an hour later. Jeurg saw them in a room with +who/where then invited the sleepwalked over for RP and melted her mind to the point of unplayability because he had seen the player in a room with a vampire. This eventually was retconned and was the tipping point that had Jeurg thrown from the mush, but that should at least give you an idea as to how he was.

Leka was another ball of something not entirely pleasant. I actually have nothing bad to say about her with my own dealings with her. If anything there was some great RP and some great, dark hooks that made for a really cool encounter. Then again, I was playing my Vampire smart and he turned down a lot of 'Changeling gifts' because he could see the barbs in the contracts. Others did not and they paid the price.

There were other people on that mush that were worse in some regards, so I don't know what else to say. <Edit: Removed the Ernst portion after further debate. ;)>

That being said, there were numerous Changelings and Mages on the same mush that were equally idiots, don't assume that vampire is the only sphere that idiots flock to. They're everywhere, anywhere, you're surrounded by idiots, and if you're not, chances are you're the idiot... (paranoia.) Many changelings were killed, mages as well, and a couple werewolves because they were played by idiot players who did really stupid things... One changeling walked into a bar where one vampire was sitting, surrounded by mortals, having a good social bar scene (HM=BarRP) and started shouting out stuff about vampires and wanting to meet a vampire and wanting to know what sort of Clans there were and factions and the like. Naming specific people, etc etc. Loudly so that you know my vampire would overhear, and rush to her to tell her all his vampire secrets... Yeah no. She died two days later, and Changelings didn't bat an eye.

Idiots everywhere.

[HelloRaptor]

@Biggles

A friend played a sleepwalker, she was OOC'ly talking with a Vampire in a room on grid, they both logged off an hour later. Jeurg saw them in a room with +who/where then invited the sleepwalked over for RP and melted her mind to the point of unplayability because he had seen the player in a room with a vampire. This eventually was retconned and was the tipping point that had Jeurg thrown from the mush, but that should at least give you an idea as to how he was.

I... what? Didn't I already say I was aware of how completely horrible Juerg was, and that he was not someone to use as an example of how actual people behaved? What is this? I don't even...

That being said, there were numerous Changelings and Mages on the same mush that were equally idiots, don't assume that vampire is the only sphere that idiots flock to.

Yeah, but none of the other spheres have a habit of whining about how everybody just picks on them because they're the least powerful sphere, or just because they're X, when really they're getting picked on because they're being idiots.

[Biggles]

@HelloRaptor

Who are you?

No, I kid, but seriously, idiots will whine regardless of sphere they're in. That being said, Vampires are totally the weakest sphere... Why won't B&S be applied already? Seriously?! (No really, why? It makes vampires last a little longer. )

[Livia]

@Arkandel I think there's something positive in disposable antagonist PCs if they're played well. Jutte started as an example of this, though she ended up becoming a lot more than I expected.

[Arkandel]

@Livia said:

@Arkandel I think there's something positive in disposable antagonist PCs if they're played well. Jutte started as an example of this, though she ended up becoming a lot more than I expected.

Well, yes, but just about anything can turn out positive if played well. My objection isn't to antagonistic PCs, or even to disposable ones, it's for playing those things badly.

[Coin]

@Arkandel, you elitist jerk.

[Arkandel]

@Coin said:

@Arkandel, you elitist jerk.

Thank you!

[tragedyjones]

I hate to interrupt this trip down memory lane, but:

OP has posted a playtest version of all the new merits that will be in WoD: Hurt Locker.

[link text](link http://theonyxpath.com/into-the-hurt-locker/)

[lordbelh]

I admit I'd rather keep fight styles simple. The mix-match reminds me of the way they redid fighting styles in armory in the 1st ed, and I wasn't all that of a fan. More realistic, perhaps, but there is something to be said for simplifying shit for a game.