Shadows Over Reno
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@skew OMG, Thank you. That graphic is beautiful -- but I have no idea what screen size people are using to think that it even remotely worked full size on the main page. I have a 27inch monitor, but I do not want to fill the whole thing with any one web page to make it possible to read it!
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In scenes with the former (the 'do all the things'), I end up just not... doing much of anything at all because I get tired of not even having the opportunity. There are people who just sort of need to be led by the hand, but then there's also those who give up because they realize that their poses are just going to be fluff and filler because Sue over there is jumping pose order, is complaining OOC or on channel whenever someone else does something, and the ST involved says nothing.
I've tried paging the ST before in these cases. To say 'Hey, I appreciate that you're running this... But because Sue keeps jumping pose order to do everything, no one else even has a chance. I haven't even had anything to pose except reactions to her and I'm starting to flag.'
Maybe we should encourage more players to be brave enough to speak up?
As an ST, one thing I've done to help spread the love, as it were... When I, say, ask for a Perception roll... I give everyone a different bit of information (if possible; sometimes it's not doable). That way, no matter who is posing or in what order, everyone has something to contribute. I also page them all separately... as I've had an ST page everyone who succeeded to say "OK, Auspice, you see Y and Bill, you see Z." and Bill poses seeing Y and Z.
There's a lot of psychology to it, sometimes. And you just have to learn that a larger number of players than you'd like need to be treated like children. You can't tell George to share the candy with his brothers and then just turn your back and expect him to do so. You've got to hand it to them each separately as George is probably going to run off, eat it all, and tell his brothers 'Oh, it was only given to me.'
Do you treat everyone that way? Hell no. But it's why 90% of what I run on nWoD is for my friends and 10% is for all comers. Because I can only handle the stress of people management on top of STing for so long.
Saying the quiet parts out loud since 1996.
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@Auspice said in Shadows Over Reno:
In scenes with the former (the 'do all the things'), I end up just not... doing much of anything at all because I get tired of not even having the opportunity. There are people who just sort of need to be led by the hand, but then there's also those who give up because they realize that their poses are just going to be fluff and filler because Sue over there is jumping pose order, is complaining OOC or on channel whenever someone else does something, and the ST involved says nothing.
It's a tough issue to solve and it can't be done through mechanics. For example the ST poses your PC has discovered a body in an alley; while you're typing the pose to alert the group about it I pose sifting through its pockets.
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Is that because there's ambiguity on behalf of the ST? Did they not make it sufficiently clear if everyone IC saw the body or just your PC?
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Should the ST only 'pose' these things in private to the applicable players? But then there may be miscommunications by emission (when you pose to alert the other characters you OOC forget to mention there's a bullet hole in his forehead) or the ST has to pose again after the discovery, and it's running a PrP is spammy situation for them as it is.
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Should mechanics handle all that using the 3-second per turn rule? If so I'll slit my wrists now because making sure everyone's doing that will drive me crazy.
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Other?
I'm pretty open to suggestions!
I've tried paging the ST before in these cases. To say 'Hey, I appreciate that you're running this... But because Sue keeps jumping pose order to do everything, no one else even has a chance. I haven't even had anything to pose except reactions to her and I'm starting to flag.'
Since this is a pretty common scenario I've seen it come up a few times. The last one was awkward because the person who paged me was close to my PC and I didn't want to sound like there was a conflict of interest there. Maybe I'm being paranoid about things like that though.
Maybe we should encourage more players to be brave enough to speak up?
That'd be great, but how?
As an ST, one thing I've done to help spread the love, as it were... When I, say, ask for a Perception roll... I give everyone a different bit of information (if possible; sometimes it's not doable). That way, no matter who is posing or in what order, everyone has something to contribute. I also page them all separately... as I've had an ST page everyone who succeeded to say "OK, Auspice, you see Y and Bill, you see Z." and Bill poses seeing Y and Z.
Yeah, I do that often. The only problem is when one of your players is inattentive/inactive (spot a pattern in my pet peeves yet?) and they totally miss an important clue which might not be that easy to work back in the same scene.
Do you treat everyone that way? Hell no. But it's why 90% of what I run on nWoD is for my friends and 10% is for all comers. Because I can only handle the stress of people management on top of STing for so long.
Yeah, ditto. I seriously get the inclination to only run them for people I already know but that does not make for a healthy MU*, especially for smaller places. That's my bigger-picture concern here.
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I have adapted my ST style to those that need hand-holding vs those that are actively involved.
However, I mostly play and ST on smaller games, where it's easier to have a read on the majority of players. On games like Fallcoast and (now) Reno, that's a lot more difficult and a large part of why I run for friends.
Because on a smaller game / with friends, I know that group A tends to drag their feet getting started, so I have to start in media res or we'll be at it forever. I know group B mostly just wants to be entertained, so I craft it to be a story where they get to roll dice. etc.
I like the stories nWoD allows me to tell, but the games end up so massive that there are just so many different variations and moving pieces that it is literally impossible to run a scene that isn't going to leave someone frustrated (most often that person will be the ST).
Saying the quiet parts out loud since 1996.
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Looking at the cool graphic, I just wanted to say the resizing code was cool.
Looked gooood on a 4K.
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@Auspice said in Shadows Over Reno:
I like the stories nWoD allows me to tell, but the games end up so massive that there are just so many different variations and moving pieces that it is literally impossible to run a scene that isn't going to leave someone frustrated (most often that person will be the ST).
I only ever run into it on Mage. With Mage I need to reeeeally be extra careful when I design plot revolving around puzzle solving else one player who knows their stuff can crack the whole thing in the first session.
However what you're referring to is why I try to run my own separate plots from staff's metaplot... I want to control the moving pieces as much as I can. It's already complicated enough without having to go back and forth with overworked staff trying to get permission to run the Prince or figure out if something can work the way I'd find convenient for my story, not to mention if I flake out I'm going to inconvenience the smaller number of people possible.
- He who takes offense when not intended is a fool. He who takes offense when intended is a greater fool.
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This is part of why I prefer to play / ST in Hunter. You don't have the 'Oh look I min-maxed so that I have the magic Solution to your puzzle' of Mage. Nor do you have to worry as much about specific sorts of enemies/plots/puzzles. I feel a lot more freedom in what I can do.
A weird otherworldly being thieving peoples' eyes? Totally. Let's go for it. Do you shoot it or capture it? How do you handle the people after?
Saying the quiet parts out loud since 1996.
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@Auspice Speaking of which, and since I've never played Hunter on MU*, does the sphere function in the absence of PrPs?
Since a player ( @Lisse24 I think, too lazy to scroll back
) stated they weren't as important as I think, I'm curious if they are actually critical for certain spheres but just not for all of them.- He who takes offense when not intended is a fool. He who takes offense when intended is a greater fool.
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@Arkandel said in Shadows Over Reno:
@Auspice Speaking of which, and since I've never played Hunter on MU*, does the sphere function in the absence of PrPs?
Since a player ( @Lisse24 I think, too lazy to scroll back
) stated they weren't as important as I think, I'm curious if they are actually critical for certain spheres but just not for all of them.Hrm. I'm not really sure.
A lot of people who play Hunter seem to really enjoy the social, bar-RP (as evidenced by the gun-bunny-bar-owner in TFV)... But by and far, what you end up with is people in a conspiracy (or even just a cell) running PRPs for each other. That's what I'm doing. I've got 3 other folks, with a poss. 4th, who are all in the same conspiracy with me. I may be the only one running PRPs for us, but these are people I know will be involved, active, share the spotlight, etc., so I can enjoy myself even while running (I do have hopes I might get to have something run for me down the road, but I'm not worried about it yet).
Having other organizations also helps (Law, University, Hospital, etc.) as it allows Hunters to mix with the other Spheres and vice versa. Then you can still have a smaller 'group' to run for, without feeling that need to open something up to a huge crowd.
Saying the quiet parts out loud since 1996.
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@Auspice Yeah, that kind of setup sounds a lot like what most people do on Werewolf.
I can't imagine playing that kind of game without STed scenes since... well, bar RP for me is where hopes and dreams go to die.
I can survive for a while on romantic relationships and the such but there's only so much of that I can do before it turns into Shang with a thin layer of WoD on top.I want to hear back from people who really don't care about PrPs though. I'm really being curious here since it's such a different way to play the game than I'm accustomed to.
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@Arkandel said in Shadows Over Reno:
I want to hear back from people who really don't care about PrPs though. I'm really being curious here since it's such a different way to play the game than I'm accustomed to.
I don't like them because they are usually rushed, chaotic, and beg to be retconned from your character history.
I like multi session personalized things, but no one has the time or attention for that shit. And I don't want to be the star if I am a player in it.
Also I am incredibly boring.
I have a waggish sense of humor.
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@Misadventure I am sorry you are incredibly boring.
Oh, wrong thread?
- He who takes offense when not intended is a fool. He who takes offense when intended is a greater fool.
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@Arkandel I edited in what I was responding to. Hope that helps.
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@Arkandel I want to make clear that I think plot is extremely important. I just think the PRP/+event system is a terrible way to run plot.
In my experience, PRPs/+events are disconnected, isolated events that have no connection to what my character has done in the past or what my character will do in the future. There is little attempt to wrap things into the broader sphere or my character's development. Players pick them up and drop them with little care or consequence. Maybe yours are different, I dunno. Can't say that I've ever been on one of mine, but the strength that MU's have over TT's is the ability to tell a long, sustained character driven story. To that end, if a +event/PRP is a nice way to spend an evening if I have absolutely nothing else to do, but I'd much rather be chewing down on some nice, meaty plot goodness.
I also have a very specific opinion about pacing. In that I like things to be slow. I want to find out a little bit of info, have a week (or two!) to RP that thing to death and make decision. Then act, find out new plot info, and RP that thing out. Bonus points if the plot-RP leaves some effect on my char for the between down-time.
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The other reason I don't run stuff game-wide is because... half the time I do plots on the fly.
I'll be RPing with X or Y person and just in the process of it... start throwing in some sort of mystery or a crime (if Law/Hunter types). It's off the cuff. I can't really... schedule that.
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@Lisse24 said in Shadows Over Reno:
@Arkandel I want to make clear that I think plot is extremely important. I just think the PRP/+event system is a terrible way to run plot.
In my experience, PRPs/+events are disconnected, isolated events that have no connection to what my character has done in the past or what my character will do in the future. There is little attempt to wrap things into the broader sphere or my character's development. Players pick them up and drop them with little care or consequence. Maybe yours are different, I dunno.
Mine aren't different than what you're describing, no, except within their own biosphere (plotsphere?); I sometimes allow one story to evolve into another, for example, so there's continuity. But when I say 'sometimes' I mean when players are engaged and follow it up, which hasn't happened in a long time for me. That is probably circumstantial though.
Can't say that I've ever been on one of mine, but the strength that MU's have over TT's is the ability to tell a long, sustained character driven story. To that end, if a +event/PRP is a nice way to spend an evening if I have absolutely nothing else to do, but I'd much rather be chewing down on some nice, meaty plot goodness.
I view PrPs as boxes; you get out of them what you put in there in the first place. So say, if my Werewolf goes into a building infested by Possessed where he has to put a bunch of them down and I treat it like a random adventure then it advances nothing; it's a story to tell over drinks, maybe. But if I allow him to feel and think about it - those were families who just got destroyed, that was someone's father he just killed and if he had been better at keeping track of these things maybe this wouldn't have happened then that's different. Next time he gets more proactive, or becomes obsessive, or starts to stalk the rest of that family to guard them (no need for a PrP for it, it's part of his routine now) and what starts as a... as almost nothing is suddenly way more.
As an actual example, on HM a Werewolf player had asked me to run an one-shot plot for him to justify a Glory spend. In it he ran into a rapey-spirit called Keep Running and destroyed it. Yay, he got his spend.
A couple of months later I ran a larger plot for the sphere where they were chasing an unknown enemy uniting spirits and actively hunting the hunters - the big bad turned out to be Keep Running who had remerged, stronger than before, and really angry. That got a rise out of that player - in a good way - who saw something he thought was a closed and shut chapter of his life come back to haunt him.
I also have a very specific opinion about pacing. In that I like things to be slow. I want to find out a little bit of info, have a week (or two!) to RP that thing to death and make decision. Then act, find out new plot info, and RP that thing out. Bonus points if the plot-RP leaves some effect on my char for the between down-time.
That's tough. I probably sound like a cranky old ST but it's rare for me to get players who're going out there doing stuff proactively for scenes although I'd very much like them to do so. For a while now I keep having to nag, tug on sleeves and page just to get answers from +jobs - or to get people to file those +jobs in the first place - but that means if I leave things be too long instead of the time being used to feed the story and build it up between sessions it grows cold instead.
@Auspice said in Shadows Over Reno:
The other reason I don't run stuff game-wide is because... half the time I do plots on the fly.
I'll be RPing with X or Y person and just in the process of it... start throwing in some sort of mystery or a crime (if Law/Hunter types). It's off the cuff. I can't really... schedule that.
I never do that. @Ganymede has mentioned it a few times but I'm very self conscious about STing things in scenes my PC is part of. I'm old school, man.
- He who takes offense when not intended is a fool. He who takes offense when intended is a greater fool.
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When my character is involved, it's usually in a more understated way. The thing I'm doing with Salvatore on Reno at the moment... Finley is almost useless against what they're dealing with due to how it's affecting her. So she's more a not-entirely-useless sidekick.
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Personal opinion incoming! Grain of salt recommended!
I feel like Hunter gets shafted in games. They aren't allowed to do their jobs 'because supers'. Yes, I understand that some Hunter players are douches and will chase after any super they find out about. But that's what staff intervention is for. And yes, some supers are douches that will hunt the Hunters because 'omg a Hunter!'. Again, staff intervention is made for this. Every Hunter sphere I've set foot in in the last... 5-6 years? They can't Hunt in the city they live in. They aren't allowed to touch PC's for ANY reason, even though the supers aren't likewise restricted... they're house-ruled and red-taped into a box of only being able to really baRP and socialize. Because anything else has to take place so far off-grid that the character will be noticeably gone for at least 12 hours... or you will suffer the wrath of the butthurt.
Again, totally personal opinion. YMMV.
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Oh, I wholly agree. Law gets the same issue. PCs can blatantly murder people in broad daylight and Law sphere is told 'oh just find a way to work around it' or to ignore it completely.
I get why Staff may sometimes be leery of PVP type situations, but you are entirely right. Supers can fux with Hunters, but not vice versa. Worse than that... on many games, Hunters aren't even allowed to use NPCs of the other spheres. So you can't, say, have Hunters deal with a pack of WW moving in on the area.
Saying the quiet parts out loud since 1996.
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@Auspice Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeees. So much this! Drove me batty, to the point I finally gave up on playing a Hunter because I am sick unto death of nothing but social/bar/hangout scenes.
