What is out there? Hard and soft codebases of choice.
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@WTFE said in What is out there? Hard and soft codebases of choice.:
For example, there are other embeddable languages out there that you can incorporate into a custom server that will bring you up out of the stone age. Off the top of my head I can cite Lua and Tcl as possible contenders (with Lua going more up the list because it's quite a bit more modern and popular a language).
Well I can't speak to Evennia since I don't work on it, but I initially looked into doing a (something)/Lua combo for Ares but settled on Ruby because the overall package felt cleaner. Yes, you sacrifice in-game scripting support but you only need to learn one language. There are other technical advantages (which is a ramble far off this topic but which I'd be happy to discuss offline if anyone's curious). It all boils down to goals and tradeoffs.
Nothing wrong with your list of ideals for a MU* replacement. I just have a different priority list. It's all good.
Now factor in debugging to find the problem. It's a lot easier to debug a system that gives you its guts at point of usage...
Personally I've found debugging in Ares to be WAY easier than in Penn. I have actual log files when something goes wrong, and I can chuck in debug statements, inspect variables, etc. Again, yes, it requires you to have a separate window open, so maybe that's a deal-breaker for you. YMMV, I can only speak for myself.
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@Griatch said in What is out there? Hard and soft codebases of choice.:
@krmbm said in What is out there? Hard and soft codebases of choice.:
@Griatch said in What is out there? Hard and soft codebases of choice.:
This is a very important point. For all the "bridging power" of mushcode, how many can actually use it to the level of, you know, creating a new game from scratch? I am not familiar enough with the MUSH community to know this number, but I suspect that it's not a large number.
You'd be surprised.
I know several people just within my one tiny subset of MUs that could get a game up-and-running themselves quickly. Partially, this is because installing MU (as has been noted) is generally super easy, especially if you go to a MU* host, where they give you a working environment and all you have to do is upload, extract, and start your MUSH.
That is great and a good boon. It's not what I asked though (or intended to ask). Just starting a server is one thing. The question was how many can then build a full game in mushcode off what the server offers with that download. Maybe the better question would be how many @Thenomain 's and @Volund 's are around these days? It''s not a retorical question - it would be interesting to know.
I'm not sure where I didn't answer that? Maybe I just wasn't specific?
I know several people (myself included) that could install and code a game that they could open to the public, without borrowing someone else's soft-code. You don't have to be a psycho-coder to make a functional MUSH.
Which is pretty much what I think everyone in this thread has been saying: Evennia seems cool! But it seems like it might be a little steep on the learning curve for the average MUSHer.
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@krmbm said in What is out there? Hard and soft codebases of choice.:
@Griatch said in What is out there? Hard and soft codebases of choice.:
@krmbm said in What is out there? Hard and soft codebases of choice.:
@Griatch said in What is out there? Hard and soft codebases of choice.:
This is a very important point. For all the "bridging power" of mushcode, how many can actually use it to the level of, you know, creating a new game from scratch? I am not familiar enough with the MUSH community to know this number, but I suspect that it's not a large number.
You'd be surprised.
I know several people just within my one tiny subset of MUs that could get a game up-and-running themselves quickly. Partially, this is because installing MU (as has been noted) is generally super easy, especially if you go to a MU* host, where they give you a working environment and all you have to do is upload, extract, and start your MUSH.
That is great and a good boon. It's not what I asked though (or intended to ask). Just starting a server is one thing. The question was how many can then build a full game in mushcode off what the server offers with that download. Maybe the better question would be how many @Thenomain 's and @Volund 's are around these days? It''s not a retorical question - it would be interesting to know.
I'm not sure where I didn't answer that? Maybe I just wasn't specific?
I know several people (myself included) that could install and code a game that they could open to the public, without borrowing someone else's soft-code. You don't have to be a psycho-coder to make a functional MUSH.
Which is pretty much what I think everyone in this thread has been saying: Evennia seems cool! But it seems like it might be a little steep on the learning curve for the average MUSHer.
OK, then I misunderstood you. Fair enough then!
I could personally not imagine writing a full game in anything lisp-like, but that just shows my bias. All the more power to you.
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Griatch -
@Griatch said in What is out there? Hard and soft codebases of choice.:
I could personally not imagine writing a full game in anything lisp-like, but that just shows my bias. All the more power to you.
I think it depends on what you consider a "full game". +finger, +who, room parent descriptions... those are relatively easy to customize and learn once you learn a few MUSHcode basics. Where the gap exists is in the more advanced systems - sophisticated chargen, combat, economy, etc. There I respectfully disagree with @krmbm that you do have to be a pretty advanced MUSHcoder to accomplish. That's why a lot of people use Theno's WoD system or my FS3. Of course, many games don't need those things.
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@faraday said in What is out there? Hard and soft codebases of choice.:
@Griatch said in What is out there? Hard and soft codebases of choice.:
I could personally not imagine writing a full game in anything lisp-like, but that just shows my bias. All the more power to you.
I think it depends on what you consider a "full game". +finger, +who, room parent descriptions... those are relatively easy to customize and learn once you learn a few MUSHcode basics. Where the gap exists is in the more advanced systems - sophisticated chargen, combat, economy, etc. There I respectfully disagree with @krmbm that you do have to be a pretty advanced MUSHcoder to accomplish. That's why a lot of people use Theno's WoD system or my FS3. Of course, many games don't need those things.
I refer to the complex stuff primarily yes - the chargens, the combat systems, the space systems, the economics etc .
If you just want your players to be able to do simple things you don't need a full softcode language; you just need powerful build commands with some aliasing and object slots for the player to customize. My impression from previous discussions on this matter is that this limited use would fulfill most of the needs many mush players actually use softcode for today.
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Griatch -
@Griatch Right, just bear in mind that vanilla Penn/Rhost/Tiny doesn't come with a lot of that simple stuff. So "game devs" use softcode for +finger/+help/+where as much as they do the advanced skills/combat foo. And the little stuff is achievable by a much larger audience of coders.
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@Griatch said in What is out there? Hard and soft codebases of choice.:
People like you and I can do some amazingly complex things in Mushcode, but it takes a level of effort that oustrips Mushcode's standard use case.
This is a very important point. For all the "bridging power" of mushcode, how many can actually use it to the level of, you know, creating a new game from scratch?
Please Note: Your concept of "a game" and my concept of "a game" seem to be very different. I don't care how much code is installed. I do this because I like to in my not-at-all-humble way "do it right", but if it's done wrong, or crappy, or haphazzardly, the only important question to me is: Are people logging in and enjoying themselves?
As @WTFE noted, each barrier between concept to login is important. The barriers are not only those of code, but of concept, of education, of engagement. I'm asking "Is it easier to learn?" I'm coming up with "no".
Or to put it another way: We are looking at solving very different problems. Every project must know what they're trying to solve. This is why I'm also okay if Evennia doesn't care if you need a deeper *NIX system knowledge to run. If it does want to educate, then Mushes do it better.
(Note that I'm not talking about plugging in a pre-made system here. That is obviously a great boon of the mushcode ecosystem but has less to do with its inherent "bridging power" and more to do with a backlog of decades of people using it for a very specific set of game styles. For Evennia (or Ares) to catch up with that aspect comes down to adoption and time.)
I've answered this already: It was very, very quick for TinyMUSH to start catching on and people writing tutorials and improving the learning curve. I've also put out there that Evennia could easily do this as well, suggested people, and said it was likely.
But right now...
- You can't do the old trick of testing your code in development in that bizarre but delightful way Mushes allow you to localize code. If you make a change, it's to the server. (New tactic: Lock the code until it's tested.)
This is what version control is for, but no, it doesn't work in the same way as mushcode.
I'm now increasing the number of disparate systems one must have a light understanding to build an Evennia game from three to four, though maybe I should take one of those out and reduce it back to three. I am not counting on either Evennia nor Mushes the ability to log into a shell and run a few lines of code. Mush remains at: One.
@faraday said in What is out there? Hard and soft codebases of choice.:
first-gen MUSH servers
I would call Mush a "second-gen MUD server". In the same way that COBOL is a third-gen programming language, and Python is a fourth.
Actually, here, let me suggest this:
- Pre-MUD (Adventure, etc.)
- MUD (bare server framework for creating the game, no in-game creation tools)
- Evennia, etc. (strong server framework, in-game limited to building, maybe a light in-game interpreter)
- MUSH (strong server framework, full in-game scripting & interpreter)
I don't want to say that a 4th Gen MU* is better than a 3rd Gen MU*, any more than any ol' 4th Gen programming language (http://lolcode.org/), just that they serve different purposes.
And that's what I see in this discussion. "Well you can do THIS," says server advocate A. "But you can't do THAT," says other server advocate B. "But THAT is different than THIS," says server advocate A. "But THIS is different than THAT," says other server advocate B.
Evennia is different than TinyMUX. We know this. Look up. No, more up. Look at the first post. Look at the question posed:
@Hexagon said in What is out there? Hard and soft codebases of choice.:
What is your favorite code base and what makes it special?
You seem to be taking it as an attack on Evennia, @Griach, at the very least defending the differences between Mushlikes and Evennia, differences that do not need defended. Explained, maybe, but you've explained them already. If other people don't think those differences are valuable, why do you care? If you do care, why don't you change them?
But me? I'm explaining my opinion and observation to anyone who wants to know them. That's 100% of my intention. What people do with them from there is up to them.
“If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos -
Observations:
Evennia is great. I love what Tehom has done with Arx on it - I love it so much. It's not plug and play, but neither is any other mush code, really. I went into staffing on Firan with no idea of tinyMUX code, and I had to learn it in order to build/GM. It was wretched. Everything is complicated and mystifying before you learn it. I don't think there's anything wrong with the statement "Developing with Evennia requires you to know/learn Python". I don't think it will ever satisfy the "I want to make another modern WoD mush by just installing a codebase and booting up the server" need, but that need is already met by generous community coders.
You can't market a product to everyone, unless it is clean air.
Also, Griatch remains the most unruffled and civil dude basically ever. Kudos.
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@Thenomain said in [What is out there?
You seem to be taking it as an attack on Evennia, @Griach, at the very least defending the differences between Mushlikes and Evennia, differences that do not need defended. Explained, maybe, but you've explained them already.
I don't see any of this as an attack or I would have stopped posting here a long time ago. I'm genuinely interested in rational feedback and opinions from you folk coming from a very different end of the mu* experience spectrum than most mud/mushers using Evennia. Do I have to agree or care enough about the feedback to make changes? No, of course not (but I'm not alone developing Evennia either btw, We do accept PRs...). Mush is only one subset of the game types people use Evennia for. Doesn't make it any less valuable to hear it though.
If other people don't think those differences are valuable, why do you care? If you do care, why don't you change them?
Of course I care. I'm a "hobbyist" too you know. I like it when people use my stuff. That doesn't mean I have to agree to please everyone or neglect to try to correct things I perceive as misunderstanding's though.
Edit: I agree this is off topic from the original question though, Apologies for my part in that.
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Griatch -
@Thenomain said in What is out there? Hard and soft codebases of choice.:
Actually, here, let me suggest this:
- Pre-MUD (Adventure, etc.)
<snip>
I think we have a fundamental disconnect on what makes a MUSH a MUSH. Is it a style of game or a style of server? Both? Neither? Kinda? I have a feeling there was a thread about this once upon a time. But depending on your definition then it's either completely possible to make a MUSH in a server like Ares/Evennia or it's completely impossible. AresMUSH is a MUSH server by my definition. And since I'm the one naming it, well...
And that's what I see in this discussion. "Well you can do THIS," says server advocate A. "But you can't do THAT," says other server advocate B. "But THAT is different than THIS," says server advocate A. "But THIS is different than THAT," says other server advocate B.
Evennia is different than TinyMUX. We know this. Look up. No, more up. Look at the first post. Look at the question posed:
Isn't that kind of the essence of the OP's question though? What makes each server different/special and why we like them?
Obviously we shouldn't be starting holy wars or being overly defensive, but well-reasoned explanations of the pros/cons of A vs B seem to be on-topic?
- Pre-MUD (Adventure, etc.)
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No apologies needed. When I see a discussion that seems to become all restatements of earlier comments, I do try to challenge them since usually I'm the one at fault. By challenge, I mean "is this going anywhere?"
I also saw Some Other People
starting to react a little more confrontationally. Nothing horrifying or poisonous, but as I was explaining to @faraday earlier in private chat, "this is no longer an important goal" can be very easily interpreted by someone who takes it personally as "this use case is useless", or something less antagonistic but still challenging. For instance, you're getting push-back that in-game developers are dead, when I see a fairly constant rate of, mm, about two a year? This isn't bad. One advanced coder can help less advanced coders maintain I'd say about four games. Less advanced coders can do a lot.If you can't tell, I want systems that are educational and easy to setup and maintain the server setup in order to help increase these numbers.
I don't think we're so off-topic that it's not useful. I think talking about the pros and cons and design goals fits very well into the original question. (Also: Tangents? On Soapbox? You don't say!)
It's all good.
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Dooblay Post.
@faraday said in What is out there? Hard and soft codebases of choice.:
@Thenomain said in What is out there? Hard and soft codebases of choice.:
Actually, here, let me suggest this:
- Pre-MUD (Adventure, etc.)
<snip>
I think we have a fundamental disconnect on what makes a MUSH a MUSH.
I was slightly regretting putting MUSH on Tier 4. I should have added MOO and MUCK to that, as both allow complete in-game scripting. I'm not saying that Tier 4 Multiplayer Text Games are all Mushes, but that Mushes are Tier 4 Mutliplayer Text Games. My apologies for being lax on that.
That is, it's not "what makes a Mush" but "what makes a Tier 4 server system".
AresMUSH is a MUSH server by my definition. And since I'm the one naming it, well...
AresMUSH sounds more like a Tier 3 server, Mush or not. The same way that Evennia has a MUD build philosophy behind its development, even if it's a Tier 3 server. Capisce?
Better terms more than welcome.
edit: My thanks to you and @Griatch for not taking my own blunt language as an attack. I imagine it would be easy.
- Pre-MUD (Adventure, etc.)
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@faraday I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree - both on the term "full game" and on the number of people that could do it.
But this does speak to a core issue: MUSH as it is (Penn/Tiny/Rhost) is used by people who want chargen, combat, economy, etc., and by people who want a social game with psychic dragons that can teleport.
I played around with FS3 a while ago just to see what it was like, and because I wanted to be lazy and not write all the boring globals. It was awesome, but it was way more code than I need. I'm sure I could have hacked around and removed all the bits I didn't need, but - just looking at how many systems were dependent on things that I wanted to uninstall - it seemed like a cleaner solution to just start from scratch on my own.
Will it be that way with AresMUSH when it's done? Legit interested. Can you uninstall default plugins and not break your game?
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@krmbm said in What is out there? Hard and soft codebases of choice.:
Will it be that way with AresMUSH when it's done? Legit interested. Can you uninstall default plugins and not break your game?
It's still a work in progress. Ultimately yeah I'd love for it to be completely plug-and-play, but it's not there yet. Some plugins are more central than others. But I like to think it's a marked improvement over my Penn codebase because each plugin clearly defines the interfaces (APIs) that other plugins are allowed to use. For example, the BBS plugin defines
has_unread_bbs?,postandsystem_post. If you were to remove that plugin, you'd just need to either stub out those methods so they do nothing, or edit the places that are trying to use them. -
@Kanye-Qwest said in What is out there? Hard and soft codebases of choice.:
I don't think there's anything wrong with the statement "Developing with Evennia requires you to know/learn Python".
There is definitely something VERY wrong with that statement: it's not true.
You must learn Python. You must learn the Python ecosystem with its myriad of tools to rein in its chaos. (Virtual environments, PIP, etc.) You have to set up a database IIRC. (I may be misremembering here; it's been ages since I looked at Evennia.) And now, apparently, you have to know Git (or Mercurial because, you know, Python).
I am by no means a defender of MUSHcode. "A fucking horror" is not a term of endearment. But even despite the fucking horror, MUSHes are far friendlier "out of the box" experiences than massively over-engineered systems like Evennia.
(I should probably put "scare quotes" around the "engineered" portion because human/machine interface is part of proper engineering.)
Now, again, if the target market is professional programmers who want a professional (where "professional" is defined as "senselessly complicated for no good reason: cf. enterprise") development environment for their pretendy-fun-time-text-game hobby, then Evennia probably hits close to a sweet spot.
If, however, the market is broader and includes hobbyists it has, IMO, fallen far short of what's needed to appeal there.
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@Griatch said in What is out there? Hard and soft codebases of choice.:
We do accept PRs...
The F/OSS mantra of choice when faced with complaints about software that the programmer doesn't want to deal with.
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@faraday said in What is out there? Hard and soft codebases of choice.:
But I like to think it's a marked improvement over my Penn codebase because each plugin clearly defines the interfaces (APIs) that other plugins are allowed to use.
One of the things that makes me call MUSHcode "a fucking horror" is its utter lack of modularity, so kudos here.
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@WTFE Wow, you are kind of a prick.
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@AntiZero said in What is out there? Hard and soft codebases of choice.:
@WTFE Wow, you are kind of a prick.
It's taken you this long to figure it out? Wow, you are kind of slow.
Little free clue, Sparky: Earlier when I referred to "a special breed of asshole", it was a self-reference.
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@WTFE well it's probably the only accurate thing you've said on this thread. So kudos.
