@Arkandel
Yeah, I figured Resilience and Vigor would be something that changed peoples' minds about it. That active portion is boss on both of those. I also think that new Animalism can be extremely, extremely powerful and useful.
Squints, re-reads To add to the point: "Add a vampire's dots in Celerity to her Defense, or her Dodge roll when defending actively." Celerity also penalizes firearms rolls made against the vampire as a passive benefit. Actively, it just makes you a motherfucker.
Werewolves could use Rage (Glory) Berserker's Might which is spend 1 Essence and either ignore upto their Glory Renown in damage, works on agg. Or heal one tilt, both reflexively.
Werewolves also have a Facet that gives them one of the active effects of Vigor (add Purity as a Weapon Bonus to your attack).
A combat Gangrel (i.e. who bought Celerity and Vigor) with Claws of the Unholy and a high Coil of the Wyrm is fucking terrifying.
The new fighting and general merits in Hurt Locker are going to make things.... interesting. They have an "Ignore up to Resolve in tilts for Composure in the ns" merit.
That said, Vampires with Resilience can still have limbs crippled and lopped off.
So let's forget about just raw power for a second. How would you rate the splats for stealth?
At a glance it goes Demon -> Vampire (but very close) -> Werewolf.
I haven't read all of Demon's stuff, but if they have the ability to out-stealth Obfuscate, that is impressive as all hell.
I'm a rodeo clown.
@tragedyjones They have so many tricks in their bag - even Covers, a very integral part of their entire splat, contributes to stealth by default. Or spoofing, reflexively hiding from (and being aware of) supernatural scrutiny attempting to figure out your species. Then they have a ton of crap meant to assist infiltration, including borrowing people's likeness, etc.
Vampires of course have the combination of Obfuscate and Dominate (to remove memories of whoever might end up seeing them anyway) which is so very good - plus they don't show up on many forms of photography, cameras, infrared, etc by definition.
Irraka lack insta-stealth (the 'now you see me, now you don't') if I remember correctly. However they can do things coming out of stealth, and they can extend stealth to their entire group which sure is nice. They're not nearly there though compared to the other splats, unless I haven't thought of something.
Are you factoring in Animalism 1 and 2, or just considering Obfuscate?
“Real magic can never be made by offering someone else's liver. You must tear out your own, and not expect to get it back.”
― Peter S. Beagle, The Last Unicorn
I think New Moon's 2nd Facet, "Slip Away', is pretty damned nice. Also it is fairly trivial for a werewolf to get 8-9 again and rote stealth, probably adding their Cunning if on a Siskur-Dah. They just don't have I AM INVISIBLE.
@The-Tree-of-Woe said:
Are you factoring in Animalism 1 and 2, or just considering Obfuscate?
No, I wasn't. Vampires are amazing in 2.0, aren't they?
And yep, @tragedyjones , Irraka sure can fuck your shit up coming out of stealth, it's just that if it's an ongoing scene where they've been already seen it's very hard for them to simply vanish - and infiltration into secure places is harder for them than the other two splats.
It just takes more effort to do everything, and they can do less, but if they catch someone by surprise (or lead their pack to spring a trap) it's going to be so very painful.
Magically vanish, probably. But they can probably roll well enough that a generous ST would let them effectively Batman their way out of many situations.
And yes, if they sneak attack you, you are probably dead.
Also, the Honor facet for Stealth amuses me:
Werewolf Said:
The Uratha may use this Facet when he succeeds at a
Stealth roll but a packmate fails. The packmate automatically
succeeds instead of using the result of her original roll.
I'm a rodeo clown.
On the other hand, when it comes to mind control and mental manipulation, Vampires are the undisputed masters at it.
I'm not sure who's second and third, but the gap between top and runner-up is huge.
By the same token, V:TM 20 tweaked Celerity and Potence a little, and thereby balanced out the physical disciplines.
Who's down to create a Sin-Eater 2e version for mu* consumption? I think we have a great group of people here that can collaborate to make an interesting and great addition to the 2e games (this is based on the assumption that Sin-Eater will be the last thing ever re-written if at all). With the way Demon, Vampire and Werewolf look I think Sin-Eaters can fit in... What's everyone think? If nothing else it could be an interesting project to mess with.
Then when it's all over and the rest of you are ready for Dead Animal Pickup, I'm gonna go balls deep into Dahl. But only because she asked me to. Sweet-like. - Riddick (2013)
@ThatOneDude said:
Who's down to create a Sin-Eater 2e version for mu* consumption? I think we have a great group of people here that can collaborate to make an interesting and great addition to the 2e games (this is based on the assumption that Sin-Eater will be the last thing ever re-written if at all). With the way Demon, Vampire and Werewolf look I think Sin-Eaters can fit in... What's everyone think? If nothing else it could be an interesting project to mess with.
I'm always up to help make Geist a 2.0 thing. I don't even think it's that hard for the mechanical parts, as those likely only need updates concerning Conditions, Tilts etc.
The bitch of the matter would be thematic parts in sections the splat really needs to be cleaned up and straightened out. And the reason it's hard is that it'd entail a lot of writing and, potentially, end up being significantly contradicted when/if Onyx Path ever puts out a book a year from now or whatever.
The only way I'd do it is if I got to design a new structure for the powers (not completely new, but...). I think it'd be great as an exercise in game design.
The only way I'd do it is if you let me change most of the theme and mechanics so that rather than playing as John who is subtly influenced by the ghost Bill, we made it so you're playing as John-Bill, the product of the merging of John and the ghost Bill.
Because damnit, having shattered memories from past lives would be awesome.
I'd rather see allowing a ghost to ride with you (and your geist) in order to help them figure out what they need to do to pass on, with the attendant draw to go all vengeful or otherwise off the path to going to the final end. That way its not everyone's schtick, every time.
@Admiral said:
The only way I'd do it is if you let me change most of the theme and mechanics so that rather than playing as John who is subtly influenced by the ghost Bill, we made it so you're playing as John-Bill, the product of the merging of John and the ghost Bill.
But that's not following the WoD paradigm at all. In all of them there's a dualism between what you were and what you could become; the Vampire struggles with her Beast, the Lost have to not become what they hate, Werewolves value Harmony, etc.
There's no conflict in what you describe, it's already done. Even worse, it's done by the time you get out of CG, so you don't even get to RP it in the first place.
Magically vanish, probably. But they can probably roll well enough that a generous ST would let them effectively Batman their way out of many situations.
And yes, if they sneak attack you, you are probably dead.
Also, the Honor facet for Stealth amuses me:
Werewolf Said:
The Uratha may use this Facet when he succeeds at a
Stealth roll but a packmate fails. The packmate automatically
succeeds instead of using the result of her original roll.
