Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes

[Arkandel]

I've played both MUDs and MUSHes for years.

There's no difference in terms of the roleplay in general; several MUD players I've interacted with were great, creative writers and very enjoyable to be around, and many MUSH players who enjoy twinking systems and learning mechanics could thrive on a MUD.

The big issue is reconciling the combat system with the necessarily turn-based aspect of roleplaying. Fighting mobs is usually quite fast paced and largely automated (backstab orc; bash orc; trip orc;...) and only lasts under a minute if not a third of that, but violent encounters between two PCs would involve typing, and that alone can take 5+ minutes.

I've love to see a MU* engine that can find the sweet spot between the two in an integrated implementation of such mechanics but so far I haven't.

So players always had to choose between using the same rapid-fire system which can result in a PC death in no time at all (imagine losing your PC, whom you've been playing for a year, in under 30 seconds because you got a slight burst of lag) or having a full fighting system you use for NPCs and then something else entirely for PC interactions. It's not... neat.

[Ganymede]

@Kestrel said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

It's pretty asinine, from an outsider's perspective, because it's totally unnecessary by the admission of everyone on this thread who's explained why it's necessary.

I don't think anyone said it is necessary. I think people are saying that it is polite.

It's also practical. About 40% of the time, people in public with no RP partners are idling. Even if they don't appear idle, they may just be checking @mail and Board posts, and are in no mood or place to RP. And, yes, I know that maybe you shouldn't idle on the Public Grid, but there are some pretty stupid people in the world. Frankly, I can't be bothered to deal with them.

So, I page to ask if they want to RP. Kind of like how you ask people at the bar if they would like a drink, so you can figure if they want to talk to you.

[Kanye Qwest]

I don't understand why it's polite to expect people to ask your permission to pose themselves into a public room. In my opinion, it's not polite to assume that, by virtue of being in a public room, your RP is the dominant and possessive RP in that room.

[Arkandel]

@Kanye-Qwest It's not, IMHO. But it is reasonable to wait until they set before you pose in, in case you're walking into something already taking place you should take under consideration. Waiting on a round of poses seems practical.

EDIT: Sorry - also, large scenes. If a scene already has 3+ people in it, ask before joining. Don't be that guy.

[Lotherio]

@Thenomain said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

@Ominous said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

@Thenomain said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

A single room can have multiple scenes in it, and it happens all the time. They are interlinked by proximity, but nobody is throwing you out of a room by saying they're not willing to include you in their interactions. There's no reason to be a jerk because you feel slighted. There's certainly no reason to feel slighted.

I am referring to people who have told me before "No, you can't be in here at all," when they are RPing in a public room. It's incredibly rare, but it has happened.

Oh, then yes. I don't read "ask before joining a scene" to be the same as "the room belongs to those in it", but I'd agree that those people who want ownership of a room should be smacked. Anyone who enters an existing scene and ignores the situation also need smacked. While there's no call for telling someone to scram from a room, I'd say that first come first scene-set too.

I think we're agreeing.

I think bubbling has been touched on enough (the right to the scene set), and the ooc watching as creepy has been mentioned. There is another smaller reason for why a room may be closed off and this may be culture clash.

Most L&L games I've been on since the 90s have been utilitarian in grid structure. Enough to offer variety in scenes but not enough to make the grid 'cluttered'. You get one 'inn' one 'castle court' and a few other public areas. Where as, even in the 90s, WoD emulated a city grid, with different sections. You get choice of restaurants, choice of venues, and its modern, you get more variety in the numerous types of venues thrown onto a grid. In L&L in the 90s, there weren't many TP rooms or private rooms then, it was one lounge and the grid (and if you had two 'bars', one was high class, one was the dive).

So folks did feel a sense of ownership to a room, if they needed the only 'alley' on the grid for their scene. The mentality needs to shift, I agree , to using TP rooms or sandboxing the location from somewhere more private if it really goes to bubbling or there really is a legit reason for no more players.

The scene could of have divulged to some sort of conflict and it really is closed off, because they don't need another individual coming into the scene to 'solve' the problem that the other four people already in the scene have been embroiled in for two hours. There are other reasons the group playing at the location is unapproachable, from filling a table (miss places code on places that don't use it) and being secretive, to off in the back office and the place doesn't come with one.

Argumentatively, they can take it to a TP room as its gone private, and probably should. Just there may be a reason its closed despite being public. Even some staff still hold out with using the grid for play, and saving TP for places just not on the grid at all. The scene probably did start public, and they want to encourage use of the grid.

And as others have mentioned, some folks can only manage 3-4 in a scene. Another person shows up and one has to leave due to size. This is similarly asinine; forcing someone continually out of public RP because you want to join a group. There is a secondary issue with this as on a lot of places with big groups, there is a habit for folks to come to big rooms just to get votes, another issue all together (but something on the cultural differences of MUD vs MUSH - joining big scenes for some bonus/xp/etc).

Its just polite to ask, and if their reason is they just don't want you in the scene, they're asses. But the may have a legitimate reason. One or two players can only manage 3-4 players. Who knows they may be leaving soon anyway and they'll ask you to wait or let you know this. Or it may be bubbled. Hell, if you really need that one public room for whatever you have in mind when they say this, you can ask them to take it to private if there is really no more room. If they were private and didn't move, they'd be the asses in that case..

This turns the issue around a little. Do you really need that room, or just want to join a big scene - which is another discussion aside from courtesy in asking to join a public room.

[lordbelh]

@Arkandel Seems more of a peeve to me.

To me its more of an indication of an entitlement culture. Again, it comes to back the fact that if you want to control your environment you do it in a private space. Otherwise, live with what happens, and if you can't accept the possibility of people joining then just don't go outside. The fifth person joining isn't really being that person in my opinion (and this even though I will often leave a scene that grows beyond 2-3 extra people), its rather on you. You had fun and you now no longer have fun with Mr 5th in the room? Do something about it. Take your fun out of the cafe and into a cab, and drive somewhere else IC. Make something out of it instead of complaining, or seething internally with resentment, or bitching about it in pages. I know people do that a lot.Occasionally I catch myself doing it, but I recognize that this is my issue.

[Arkandel]

@lordbelh said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

@Arkandel Seems more of a peeve to me.

I disagree! It's fairly typical (probably even cliche) when a scene starts somewhere with 2-3 people and just as it starts getting some momentum suddenly it balloons to 5-6 as folks notice there's stuff happening on +where and walk right in so it swiftly becomes unmanageable. It's common to see the original participants then going "uh, sorry guys, I can't keep up with the spam, see ya!".

Now, to keep things under perspective here I am not claiming the-generic-you is a monster for popping in without checking first... but check first. It's that or have every scene take place in temp rooms, at which point why have a grid at all?

[Kanye Qwest]

@lordbelh said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

You had fun and you now no longer have fun with Mr 5th in the room? Do something about it. Take your fun out of the cafe and into a cab, and drive somewhere else IC. Make something out of it instead of complaining, or seething internally with resentment, or bitching about it in pages.

+1 +1 +1

How about - roleplay? It's very easy to dismiss and then ignore people being disruptive for the hell of it - you know, the guy who runs in and collapses in a bloody heap at a table of strangers just trying to have coffee. And if you do it IC, then you are refusing to let it disrupt your scene and that is zen and good.

And if it's someone just posing in to see who bites and feels like interacting, do or don't, but again, it doesn't have to disrupt anything or be taken OOC.

[lordbelh]

@Arkandel said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

@lordbelh said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

@Arkandel Seems more of a peeve to me.

I disagree!

Its okay to disagree!

It's fairly typical (probably even cliche) when a scene starts somewhere with 2-3 people and just as it starts getting some momentum suddenly it balloons to 5-6 as folks notice there's stuff happening on +where and walk right in so it swiftly becomes unmanageable. It's common to see the original participants then going "uh, sorry guys, I can't keep up with the spam, see ya!".

It is fairly common. I do it myself some times. But there are alternatives, including leaving together with some other original characters and taking your scene to go. We're on a game together. Things happening you can't control, a scene taking a sudden left turn, doesn't have to be a problem unless you're unable or unwilling to turn it into more fodder for rp.

Now, to keep things under perspective here I am not claiming the-generic-you is a monster for popping in without checking first... but check first. It's that or have every scene take place in temp rooms, at which point why have a grid at all?

I'll flip that around on you: If public spaces can't be used by the public you might as well just stay in temp rooms and every scene exclusive to page invites.

[Ganymede]

@Kanye-Qwest said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

I don't understand why it's polite to expect people to ask your permission to pose themselves into a public room.

Politeness is the manner in which you conduct yourself. I think paging a person/group before entering their room is polite.

I don't think that it is rude to pose into a public room without asking first. I think it is rude to demand that people ask for your permission before coming into the public room in which you are RPing or connected.

I think we're mostly on the same page, but I'm commenting to clarify my previous comment.

[Lotherio]

@Kanye-Qwest said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

@lordbelh said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

You had fun and you now no longer have fun with Mr 5th in the room? Do something about it. Take your fun out of the cafe and into a cab, and drive somewhere else IC. Make something out of it instead of complaining, or seething internally with resentment, or bitching about it in pages.

+1 +1 +1

How about - roleplay? It's very easy to dismiss and then ignore people being disruptive for the hell of it - you know, the guy who runs in and collapses in a bloody heap at a table of strangers just trying to have coffee. And if you do it IC, then you are refusing to let it disrupt your scene and that is zen and good.

Dealing with snowflakes is a different discussion than courtesy of asking to join a scene.

And if it's someone just posing in to see who bites and feels like interacting, do or don't, but again, it doesn't have to disrupt anything or be taken OOC.

Wouldn't it save this person 20 minutes of time of going to a scene, waiting for a couple poses to see what's going on, pose to see if anyone bites and not getting any reaction if they would of just paged the group in public to see if there was room for another. They could page back, we're sort of in a private conversation, or there is room for another, or one or two could say the third is leaving soon, give them 10 minutes and they'll be open for anything. With limited time, even if I felt I can manage a big scene, I'd rather ask and make sure I'll get a bite for my RP instead of go and just be ignored.

Jumping into a room is as much an assumption as the room ownership. A few pages could of avoided all that.

Point to the ongoing topic of why OOCly people make sure things are square OOCly, this difference of opinion right here - assumptions on either side, leads to another head on the drama hydra (eviscerating spiral).

[lordbelh]

@Lotherio said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

Wouldn't it save this person 20 minutes of time of going to a scene, waiting for a couple poses to see what's going on, pose to see if anyone bites and not getting any reaction if they would of just paged the group in public to see if there was room for another.

Sure. And if you can't tolerate being ignored IC by the people whose scene you entered without asking if the scene lent itself to easy inclusion, you really shouldn't have joined it without asking in the first place.

And waiting for a round of posts/the scene set isn't so much about politeness (though it is that as well) as it is a question of good roleplay. You cannot expect to be able to maintain scene integrity if you don't know what the fuck is going on before you enter it.

[Lotherio]

@lordbelh said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

@Lotherio said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

Wouldn't it save this person 20 minutes of time of going to a scene, waiting for a couple poses to see what's going on, pose to see if anyone bites and not getting any reaction if they would of just paged the group in public to see if there was room for another.

Sure. And if you can't tolerate being ignored IC by the people whose scene you entered without asking if the scene lent itself to easy inclusion, you really shouldn't have joined it without asking in the first place.

Exactly why folks are saying it helps to ask first?

And waiting for a round of posts/the scene set isn't so much about politeness (though it is that as well) as it is a question of good roleplay. You cannot expect to be able to maintain scene integrity if you don't know what the fuck is going on before you enter it.

No argument about waiting for a round of poses, I'm a fan of pose order over 3pr and someone jumping into a room before scene set and the others to pose their round is a pet peeve.

[lordbelh]

@Lotherio said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

Exactly why folks are saying it helps to ask first?

No, people are saying its polite to ask first, thus implying entitlement and control over a grid space, and the right to tell you no. That it might be smart to ask first isn't something I'd argue against. I sometimes do, I often don't, but again I'm willing to live with the consequences, which might be Vampire X and Vampire Y looking at me, looking at each other, then leaving for a more private location.

3 posts and that was that scene. Yet.. it was still a form of interaction.

ETA: We were still existing in the same game. A shared environment in which what I do affects what you do. Even if that's just to walk away. And this is somewhat of a peeve of mine: But I do feel like there are way too many players who rather than share would own this environment, making every other character and player but a bit piece in their grand story, to be straight up ignored and set aside if they feel like it. And I think ownership of public spaces is part of it.

[Lotherio]

@lordbelh said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

@Lotherio said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

Exactly why folks are saying it helps to ask first?

No, people are saying its polite to ask first, thus implying entitlement and control over a grid space, and the right to tell you no. That it might be smart to ask first isn't something I'd argue against. I sometimes do, I often don't, but again I'm willing to live with the consequences, which might be Vampire X and Vampire Y looking at me, looking at each other, then leaving for a more private location.

3 posts and that was that scene. Yet.. it was still a form of interaction.

Circular logic. Polite to ask first is wrong, smart to ask first is right.

You mentioned you leave scenes if they get too big. Most places I've staffed at, I've been approached by the friends of people like that and asked to do so something about the problem of big scenes, such as making it policy to ask to join a scene first, because they're sad their friend is always leaving public scenes. I'll never make that a policy at any place I'm running. But, its still polite to ask first, and if the room is closed without any good reason, I do believe they should be asked to go private (reminded to at least).

[Arkandel]

@lordbelh said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

I disagree!

Its okay to disagree!

How civil! It makes me feel dirty inside.

It is fairly common. I do it myself some times. But there are alternatives, including leaving together with some other original characters and taking your scene to go. We're on a game together. Things happening you can't control, a scene taking a sudden left turn, doesn't have to be a problem unless you're unable or unwilling to turn it into more fodder for rp.

My typical scenario goes like this (and I might be wrong but I think it's fairly common): I see a friend online and page to ask for RP, we pick a room and meet there. At this point we would probably both love an extra character or two to keep things from becoming too predictable and maybe pick up some additional RP hooks - so if asked we'd love to see newcomers. Picking a private room for it won't work since it's quite likely people might assume we're not open for them and won't even ask to join.

I don't think a quick page is too big a barrier to entry. It literally takes under a minute and gets rid of the entire issue right there - as opposed to people joining a scene that's already pretty busy/spammy and having to see folks leaving it for that reason. It's easy then to think they are jerks and/or take it personally because... why wouldn't you? After all you posed in and suddenly half the characters are leaving? Elitists!

[Ganymede]

@lordbelh said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

No, people are saying its polite to ask first, thus implying entitlement and control over a grid space, and the right to tell you no.

I think people have a right to control their RP, to a degree; that degree begins and ends when that RP affects others' ability to do the same. Sic utere tuo ut alienum non laedas, and all of that.

[ixokai]

@Kestrel said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

@ixokai said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

Why is being polite and showing respect asinine? Especially since the denial is so incredibly rare as to being extremely exceptional?

It's pretty asinine, from an outsider's perspective, because it's totally unnecessary by the admission of everyone on this thread who's explained why it's necessary.

I responded and I didn't admit, in any way shape or form, that it was unnecessary. I said it was a courtesy, not a rule. Courtesy is how life among different people is kept oiled and moving smoothly

I think the idea that you would ask someone if you can join a scene just to be able to determine that they're an arsehole on the off chance they say 'no' is pretty weird. That seems like a person is begging to get offended.

Nothing you're saying makes sense to me. I didn't say anything like asking to join is done to determine that someone's an asshole. I also didn't say that a no response indicated an asshole, or was offensive.

It's a social construct that makes no sense. It's inefficient. It's a waste of time.

It makes perfect sense. Its called being polite and respectful of the fact that there are costs to one's actions and one's presence in a scene in addition to the value you add.

Maybe there's a better way of doing things. Just a thought.

Like what?

[Lotherio]

@Arkandel said in [Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes

I don't think a quick page is too big a barrier to entry. It literally takes under a minute and gets rid of the entire issue right there - as opposed to people joining a scene that's already pretty busy/spammy and having to see folks leaving it for that reason. It's easy then to think they are jerks and/or take it personally because... why wouldn't you? After all you posed in and suddenly half the characters are leaving? Elitists!

@lordbelh said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

ETA: We were still existing in the same game. A shared environment in which what I do affects what you do. Even if that's just to walk away. And this is somewhat of a peeve of mine: But I do feel like there are way too many players who rather than share would own this environment, making every other character and player but a bit piece in their grand story, to be straight up ignored and set aside if they feel like it. And I think ownership of public spaces is part of it.

Both of these go together, different sides of the same coin. Yes, a group that has claimed John's Juke Joint as their hangout and constantly say the scene is closed are asshats and should be sandboxing in private. I agree, there is a lot of cliquish mentality, not wholly on purpose either. Likewise, ignoring a 5th wheel is just the same. I notice I try to acknowledge at least the pose if someone comes into public and at times at the cost of ignoring an ongoing IC relationship. Yes, I prefer to be paged first, but if I go public, I don't discourage random joins, I still think its polite to ask first and saves lots of hassle all around..

Both point back to why more OOC helps in MUSH'ing.

[SG]

@Ominous

I am referring to people who have told me before "No, you can't be in here at all," when they are RPing in a public room. It's incredibly rare, but it has happened.

Oh man, this happened to me on a battlestar mush before. I was rping with someone, doing some guard duty when a mechanic ran over and flipped out because we were being distracting, which was odd because they were just idling IIRC. We tried to tell them to relax but the gasket was so blown they had a friend(I'm hoping it was a friend and not that player) make up an alt superior officer and have the new alt explicitly order us to never go to the launch bay ever again. The alt superior officer was then never seen again.