Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes

[Kanye Qwest]

@Lotherio said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

This goes into asshat territory too.

If I'm staff, and its conceivable NPCs are doctors, players shouldn't have to wait for the bone setting. It should be assumed. In fact if A, B, and even C are having fun, the NPC world should react as expected without staff needing to be there, or hand waving no NPCs. That sounds like a deterrent to RP in general.

But in that example, you had to spend a lot of time and energy saving up XP to learn bone setting. If staff had NPCd bonesetters every time someone broke a bone:
A. it trivializes the work of those players who put in the effort to learn how to yank a bone straight
B. Defeats the purpose of having broken bones. There's no point in offering consequences that mean nothing. It's a waste of time and processing power.

[faraday]

@Kanye-Qwest said:

There's no point in offering consequences that mean nothing. It's a waste of time and processing power.

This gets back to @Ganymede's simulation vs narration argument
Or to put it another way, game vs story.

If "game" is your angle, you care about rewarding PCs for their XP spends and enforcing consequences that mean something relevant to the game.

If "story" is your thing, all of that means nothing. There's a whole hospital filled with NPC doctors, many of whom are better than your PCs. And the broken bone means something to your character's RP regardless of whether there’s a coded effect.

It's not an either-or though. Each MUSH strikes a different balance, and thats why you get such widely different perspectives.

[mietze]

I have never played a mud, but I have seen all these variants, from the "everyone is timestopped if anyone in the area isn't online and will remain so until things can be coordinated" (not very respectful of players, IMO) to "if I don't see you/talk to you I can make up whatever shit I want to ooc about what your PC was doing and I can and will present it as ooc fact, not just my PC lying". (The only time I ever filed a complaint on TR and one of only 2 times ever I've filed one period). I have also been ICly penalized for "not being around at these important scenes for the group"....because I was running them for the group. :D. And waiting for all the friendly powerful people to go to bed oocly and log off was often the time the telenuke would be given, back in the 90s/early 00s.

On MUSH/Xes, not MUDs. I like @Ganymede 's distinctions best. It makes a lot more sense as a cultural sense. I bet there is a spectrum of MUDs to Mushes that fit both.

[Pandora]

@faraday said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

@Kanye-Qwest said:

There's no point in offering consequences that mean nothing. It's a waste of time and processing power.

This gets back to @Ganymede's simulation vs narration argument
Or to put it another way, game vs story.

If "game" is your angle, you care about rewarding PCs for their XP spends and enforcing consequences that mean something relevant to the game.

If "story" is your thing, all of that means nothing. There's a whole hospital filled with NPC doctors, many of whom are better than your PCs. And the broken bone means something to your character's RP regardless of whether there’s a coded effect.

It's not an either-or though. Each MUSH strikes a different balance, and thats why you get such widely different perspectives.

This would be more relevant if it was possible to decide what percentage of a MU* is game, and what percentage is story. I've never logged into any game, MUD or MUSH, that clarified up front whether the game was 20% game, or 65.3% story. It seems to me that each of these situations and scenarios could vary wildly not game-by-game, but player-by-player within one game. That lack of uniformity in determination seems like it could easily turn into hard feelings about favoritism or what have you. 'Bob got saved by an NPC doctor after he got stabbed in the chest, but I died after a PC doctor botched his roll. I want a do-over.'

MUDs aren't perfect, but if you've got a doctor, you're saved, and if you don't have a doctor, here's hoping you remembered to set your spouse/beneficiaries before you kicked the bucket.

[Lotherio]

@Kanye-Qwest said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

@Lotherio said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

This goes into asshat territory too.

If I'm staff, and its conceivable NPCs are doctors, players shouldn't have to wait for the bone setting. It should be assumed. In fact if A, B, and even C are having fun, the NPC world should react as expected without staff needing to be there, or hand waving no NPCs. That sounds like a deterrent to RP in general.

But in that example, you had to spend a lot of time and energy saving up XP to learn bone setting. If staff had NPCd bonesetters every time someone broke a bone:
A. it trivializes the work of those players who put in the effort to learn how to yank a bone straight

I agree with this. I've been on games where staff did point out to go find the players who could do it.

But this oddly seems counterintuitive to the discussion about finding the PC doc situation too.

I'm in the if there is a third player involved and you've involved them, don't cut them out camp. But on these places where you have to find PCs, it works if the player base is big enough, but it sucks when it thins down.

I am a daytime player, these places have always sucked for me as there are fewer players on them. Sure it trivializes the work of those players who learned to yank a bone, but if our IC times don't line up, the story must go on (without making up excuses for the IC docs). Why must I have to get on during my family time, or my kids recital just to appease the player that spent all CGen points on being a doctor, the same as why must I say because they were not there during my time online, they must make up the reason my character must remain in agony while @Pandora buries my alive, whimpering and pleading for my life?

B. Defeats the purpose of having broken bones. There's no point in offering consequences that mean nothing. It's a waste of time and processing power.

If the players involved had fun, does it defeat the purpose of broken bones - no. They play out finding doc, getting it set, then healing. Instead of being forced to 'no doctors on during your time slot/commitement' and letting it fester and worsen despite the description of the hospital saying 'doctors and nurses scurry about'.

[Lotherio]

As an aside, I'll say this. MUDs, or the ones where you're accountable for offline time, really favors the players who can make time commitment and dampens the fun for those with less time. Which is why those with less time probably seem to favor MUSH that gives them opportunity to have fun without a major time commitment of building up a char slowly over time to be on par with the majority of the player base.

Its another difference all together, but with limited time, I prefer a few more open doors to what I can do, or my players can do, without limiting it to the code, or the availability of other players. I have friends in nearly every time zone, waiting on players to be available to do anything sucks too.

Edit: Well, you were off line, you didn't get the golden ticket. Well, you were off line, you missed the awesome event and tons of XP award. Well, you were offline, we had a major emergency, looked for your character, you missed out on the fun, and now you have to explain where you were. Well, the doctor is offline, your SOL, and the code has festering into it, if a PC doesn't check it you could die. Time constrained people will go elsewhere, and they do, to MUSHes or places that give them freedom to have fun like everyone else.

[Pandora]

@Lotherio said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

As an aside, I'll say this. MUDs, or the ones where you're accountable for offline time, really favors the players who can make time commitment and dampens the fun for those with less time. Which is why those with less time probably seem to favor MUSH that gives them opportunity to have fun without a major time commitment of building up a char slowly over time to be on par with the majority of the player base.

I find this to be a disingenuous statement at best, as if the issue of whether or not someone is 'active enough' doesn't come up fairly regularly on MUSHes - it does, I'm pretty sure it's the basis of a post on this website today in some other thread. Every game will suffer from the 'Need Player 32 for X reason at Y time' situation now and again, whatever acronym the game is predicated upon. 'Activity' is nothing but a ratio of time spent in-game and time spent off-game and the only way to not hold anyone accountable for their offline time is to have zero expectation of activity whatsoever.

[Thenomain]

@Pandora said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

That lack of uniformity in determination seems like it could easily turn into hard feelings about favoritism or what have you. 'Bob got saved by an NPC doctor after he got stabbed in the chest, but I died after a PC doctor botched his roll. I want a do-over.'

This is a problem in RPG design, too, not just Mushes or Muds. Have you ever watched the comedy short, "The Gamers"? They do this all the time. At the table, it doesn't matter because the rules at the table are the rules for your reality. In game design, however, my preferred answer is: If you choose to roll the dice, you abide by the system.

MUDs aren't perfect, but if you've got a doctor, you're saved, and if you don't have a doctor, here's hoping you remembered to set your spouse/beneficiaries before you kicked the bucket.

This strikes me as a concession, not a solution, and what if the doctor has to roll the dice, those dice are just part of the 'health system' code that you don't see? See Above.

[Lotherio]

@Pandora said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

'Activity' is nothing but a ratio of time spent in-game and time spent off-game and the only way to not hold anyone accountable for their offline time is to have zero expectation of activity whatsoever.

This rubs me the wrong way. If someone can only get on once a week, or once a month, why should they be excluded from having the fun they want?

Realms had an idle policy, because of important positions. I still feel bad about @Sunny's friend being reaped. The game I'm doing now, I've removed idle policy. If you are approved, come on any time, RP, have an adventure as much as you like.

Sure, your friends may wonder where you were, and you may have to make up an excuse, family emergency, out of town ... or just been to busy to socialize without need for why you were in RL so much.

So, yes, I have zero expectation of activity from any given player. The place is still active.

[Kanye Qwest]

@Lotherio That's great, but is not appropriate or acceptable for all game formats, right? Sometimes, being around matters. I don't think anyone should be punished for lacking massive free time to pour into a text game, of course, but let's just be real: we are discussing games.

Sure, sometimes you get emotionally invested in games. That's natural! However, if your life doesn't allow you to play a game the way the game is meant to be played, that's not a punishment - that's just a bad fit. If you can only play a game once a month, find a game where that doesn't matter. Shangrila. Skyrim. Online poker. Whatever.

A game runner setting up activity requirements isn't punishing or excluding anyone in particular, they are laying out what their game needs.

[Pandora]

@Thenomain said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

@Pandora said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

MUDs aren't perfect, but if you've got a doctor, you're saved, and if you don't have a doctor, here's hoping you remembered to set your spouse/beneficiaries before you kicked the bucket.

This strikes me as a concession, not a solution, and what if the doctor has to roll the dice, those dice are just part of the 'health system' code that you don't see? See Above.

Can't speak for all MUDs here, the beauty of original code is that it all works differently, right? On the MUD I play though, if you have the skill, you succeed. There is no RNG. You can RP something going wrong in surgery, you can absolutely not-save someone if they rip out their pacemaker and shout Sparta after a critical wound, but if you want to save them, you do. Heil doctors.

Also - if you need a doctor and one isn't around, you can absolutely go to the hospital and NPC doctors are coded to give you the gift of healing - but you're at the mercy of the person that wounded you actually getting you there on time, and no amount of OOCly paging/calling/seeking someone to save you via OOC means is going to help - you've got to navigate through the streets to the hospital and hope you don't bleed out along the way. (You have 1 rl hour).

@Lotherio said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

@Pandora said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

'Activity' is nothing but a ratio of time spent in-game and time spent off-game and the only way to not hold anyone accountable for their offline time is to have zero expectation of activity whatsoever.

This rubs me the wrong way. If someone can only get on once a week, or once a month, why should they be excluded from having the fun they want? Realms had an idle policy, because of important positions. I still feel bad about @Sunny's friend being reaped. The game I'm doing now, I've removed idle policy. If you are approved, come on any time, RP, have an adventure as much as you like. Sure, your friends may wonder where you were, and you may have to make up an excuse, family emergency, out of town ... or just been to busy to socialize without need for why you were in RL so much. So, yes, I have zero expectation of activity from any given player. The place is still active.

So without an idle policy, if someone is playing the leader of a faction, or whatever counts as an 'important person' in your game, is everyone else's fun suspended until they decide to log on, if they ever do? If I can't diablerize someone without my vampire boss saying it's okay (I'm pulling WoD terms out of my ass, I don't play this stuff but it seems popular with the kids these days) but he hasn't logged on since Christmas, and you don't want me making assumptions about people not being around because they aren't logged in... now what?

[Thenomain]

@Kanye-Qwest

I believe you missed an important part of @Lotherio's text: He is setting up a game where it doesn't matter. I can't tell if you're telling him that he's wrong to do so, but it sure seems like it.

[ThatGuyThere]

@Pandora said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

@faraday said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

I like @Wretched's motto:
If someone is OOCLY unavailable, never give them dickish consequences or treat them like an abandoner.

It's a nice motto, but I suppose I just don't see someone not being around for something as a dickish consequence? And at no point did I accuse C of being an abandoner. If B dies and OOCly blames/guilts C for not being around, that's B's inability to separate IC from OOC, aka B's problem.

You might not but considering the number of times I have seen just that when people have been not on for something, excuse my doubt in thinking it wouldn't happen more often then not.

[Pandora]

@ThatGuyThere said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

@Pandora said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

@faraday said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

I like @Wretched's motto:
If someone is OOCLY unavailable, never give them dickish consequences or treat them like an abandoner.

It's a nice motto, but I suppose I just don't see someone not being around for something as a dickish consequence? And at no point did I accuse C of being an abandoner. If B dies and OOCly blames/guilts C for not being around, that's B's inability to separate IC from OOC, aka B's problem.

You might not but considering the number of times I have seen just that when people have been not on for something, excuse my doubt in thinking it wouldn't happen more often then not.

That sounds like something to be taken up with the people abusing players for not being around ICly. I don't believe in bending to the whim of people that I believe are behaving badly. I don't tolerate bad behavior in children, why would I ever tolerate it in allegedly fully-functional adults?

[Thenomain]

@Pandora said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

Also - if you need a doctor and one isn't around, you can absolutely go to the hospital and NPC doctors are coded to give you the gift of healing - but you're at the mercy of the person that wounded you actually getting you there on time, and no amount of OOCly paging/calling/seeking someone to save you via OOC means is going to help - you've got to navigate through the streets to the hospital and hope you don't bleed out along the way. (You have 1 rl hour).

Why 1 hour? This seems like an arbitrary number to me, and you were arguing against abitrariness for creating hard feelings. Even set rules can cause hard feelings. "I had only 2 points over lethal, while Bob had 10, and he had the same hour to get help as I did, that's unfair!"

And this is what gets me about Muds: All these systems are, in the end, arbitrary. Like all games, you pick the game you like and you play it, knowing that it's arbitrary. Saying "at least Muds do it differently" is the concession that different games are different. It's not a solution, and the way your particular Mud habit goes isn't better in general. It's better for you, absolutely, but I don't see this as being a solution to any problem than "one of a thousand ways to do it".

So no, I don't think your answer is a great solution. I think it's a concession to the people who like things that way, as opposed to people who like things, well, the Mush way.

[ThatGuyThere]

@Pandora said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

So this got me to thinking - how could A -ever- murder B and make it look like an accident if C is apparently omnipresent? I know if you stuck me in a cruiser with 2 people and I wanted to kill one of them I'd just wait until the third person is asleep or in the loo and I'd say afterwards 'I called for you, but you didn't hear me' and what are you going to say? 'No, you didn't call for me, I'd have heard you.'?

By making the appropriate rolls to make the would look accidental while Dr. C makes the rolls to notice if the wound look consistent to the story given.
Also you are the one assuming C will be successful in treating B. All the MUSH side of the argument says is that Dr. C should be allowed to make the roll. C could botch and quicken B's death, they could fail and all the efforts were in vain Or C could fail the roll to treat but succeed on the roll to notice foul play and we have an episode of Diagnosis Murder on.

[ThatGuyThere]

@Pandora said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

I think at this point, there've been so many 'What Ifs' thrown into the equation that the message is lost.

No one is suggesting making up the IC narrative for another player, it's merely suggested that if they can't be around, it's assumed they have some reason, however good/bad that reason may be, and they can let us know later when they log on. Or not. Up to them.

If anyone is giving someone a hard time OOCly about any of this, they are the ones crossing an IC/OOC line.

There is no line crossing if I ICly stab someone, ICly look for the doctor, ICly don't find the doctor, ICly bury someone in the woods.

If that's crossing an OOC line on a MUSH, then there we have yet another charming difference between MUDs and MUSHes.

On most MUSHes even is the perspective victim is completely fine with OOCly with losing the PC, Pks have to go through staff.
Which could be a difference as well on MUDs code seems to be the final word, on MUSHes staff is for better or worse.

[Lotherio]

@Kanye-Qwest said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

@Lotherio That's great, but is not appropriate or acceptable for all game formats, right

I never said it was, I'm pointing out my preference for MUSHes. I have played on games requiring my time to be spent on-line, I've played MUDs (still do), I've played the RPI MUDs mentioned. I'm saying my preference is where everyone can find their fun.

Even on places where there is meta and time constraints, I usually find a group that I get along with OOCly. We run our stories, folks call it sandboxing. Playing in private areas on anothers game and just running your own RP stories because you do like the code (and abide by it, just in your own bubble).

Take @Pandora's example of the one hour. My friends may all just agree to a time bubble to continue the fun when they can all get back on together.

If I want to play a game, I go play a game. I'm into MU's for shared RP and story telling these days.

[Pandora]

@Thenomain said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

@Pandora said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

Also - if you need a doctor and one isn't around, you can absolutely go to the hospital and NPC doctors are coded to give you the gift of healing - but you're at the mercy of the person that wounded you actually getting you there on time, and no amount of OOCly paging/calling/seeking someone to save you via OOC means is going to help - you've got to navigate through the streets to the hospital and hope you don't bleed out along the way. (You have 1 rl hour).

Why 1 hour? This seems like an arbitrary number to me, and you were arguing against abitrariness for creating hard feelings. Even set rules can cause hard feelings. "I had only 2 points over lethal, while Bob had 10, and he had the same hour to get help as I did, that's unfair!"

And this is what gets me about Muds: All these systems are, in the end, arbitrary. Like all games, you pick the game you like and you play it, knowing that it's arbitrary. Saying "at least Muds do it differently" is the concession that different games are different. It's not a solution, and the way your particular Mud habit goes isn't better in general. It's better for you, absolutely, but I don't see this as being a solution to any problem than "one of a thousand ways to do it".

So no, I don't think your answer is a great solution. I think it's a concession to the people who like things that way, as opposed to people who like things, well, the Mush way.

2 points over...10 points over... whether your arm is severed at the elbow or shoulder - you're bleeding. A critical injury is one that, whatever the means of application, has shortened your lifespan to 1 RL hour without intervention. It's not arbitrary, it's the length of time at which you are considered in mortal peril, no matter your injury. you could have an injury that requires treatment within 12 hours, or 62. That's not considered a dire emergency by the game.

[Lotherio]

@Pandora said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

2 points over...10 points over... whether your arm is severed at the elbow or shoulder - you're bleeding. A critical injury is one that, whatever the means of application, has shortened your lifespan to 1 RL hour without intervention. It's not arbitrary, it's the length of time at which you are considered in mortal peril, no matter your injury. you could have an injury that requires treatment within 12 hours, or 62. That's not considered a dire emergency by the game.

For the record, if this was anywhere outside of a MUD, I wouldn't play there. Not that it contributes to cultural differences. I'd play on a MUD, take injuries, know my options. If I planned to adventure and get hurt, I'd know where the healer was, or know my options if I got hurt or suck up the death. I'd play the game that way.