Do you believe in paranormal things?
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There's two incidents that I've either witnessed or seen the results of. For the life of me, I cannot, to this day, explain either of them. Nothing that science can explain. Whatever I say here, I'm going to understand if people are dubious of. Had I not been witness myself, I likely would be too. So feel free to believe or disbelieve at your leisure.
The first incident happened in the early 2000s. 2004, I want to say. It was winter in Wisconsin, and I had been homeless for the greater portion of it, living in a 92 Chevy Cavalier convertible with a broken heater core. I had found a job working second shift in a factory(a job which I hated, I might add, but I was desperate for work).
I was getting near the point where I had saved up enough for an apartment of my home, though I had no desire to really live in the city which I worked. For those in the know or at least know the area, I worked in Beloit, WI, and was 'living' in Janesville, WI. It was about a 15 minute drive between the two cities, and the road I traveled on was this county highway. At this time, it was empty, save for maybe the occasional car or semi. I'm driving home, at around 1am. It's winter, as I said, just recently had a snowstorm. In between these two cities is a lot of farmland, so a lot of open space. As I'm letting my mind just kinda 'drift', I pick something out of on the passenger side window. At first I thought it was a medevac chopper, which wasn't uncommon. But I took notice of the fact that it looked like there was a spotlight shining on the ground. Which, didn't really make sense to me, because what the hell would a medevac chopper be doing looking at farmland?
As I kept driving, I saw it coming closer, like it was going fly over the highway in which I was driving. Because of all the snow, it made for a pretty bright night, when it's not as dark as it could be. Helped that the moon was out and it was clear. Which also meant it was really cold(and without heat in your car, you really notice that kind of shit). I kept staring at it, and I realized it's sillouete wasn't of a helicopter. Looked more like a triangular wedge. Big. Not like...a 100 yards across or anything that huge, but it was big enough to pick out it's shape.
I had no idea what I was really looking at, it didn't make sense to me. But I was 21 and stupid, so curiosity got the better of me. I pulled my car over to the side of the road and got out to try and make sense of what the hell it was. Funnily enough, I wasn't the only one, someone going the opposite direction did the same thing. I remember most of the conversation:
Me: Hey, you see that shit?
Him: Yeah, you ever see anything like that?
Me: No. Can't figure out what it is.
Him: Yeah, why I stopped.
So, both stood there, staring at this thing, coming at a vague angle towards the road. It made no sound. Didn't hear anything, which is what made it so strange. But I do remember the sensation of tasting burnt ozone in my mouth. And at that time, I remember, somewhere in the back of my skull, something is telling me to get in my car and drive. Get the hell out of there. But I just kept staring, my desire for curiosity was just too strong.
See...and this is the part where I lose people, if I hadn't already. Because this is where the tinfoil hats come in. From the opposite direction, I heard the distinct 'whoop whoop' sound of helicopters. Two of them, infact. And not like your standard police or medical ones. Military ones. Apache types. Or something that'd qualify as a gunboat. And they were going right for whatever that 'thing' was. Apparently, it too had an idea of what was coming, and it just took off at an angle that I didn't expect into the air. Like doing so with such an amount of acceleration, that many Gs would've turned someone into paste. And it was just gone.
My newfound friend and I also realized that it was probably the best time to get the hell out, so we both got back into our cars and tore out. I remember going back to my friend's apartment, and she thought I looked like I had saw someone die, I apparently appeared that white. I told her what I saw, and while I could tell she was more than dubious, she simply shoved a joint in my face and told me to light up.
So that's one of my stories. I'll tell that other one if anyone wants to hear it, but like I said, I completely understand if anyone thinks I'm blowing smoke up their ass. On the other hand, I know what I saw. And it was from that point on that I knew there were things within and beyond the confines of our world that are beyond explanation. So yeah. Believe or don't. I know I do.
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Magic and ghosts aren't real.
You're all nerds.
That is all.
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@Admiral said in Do you believe in paranormal things?:
Magic and ghosts aren't real.
You're all nerds.
That is all.
Aye-Aye, sir!
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Kinda? I'm religious, so I suppose there's that, as much as Baha'i really believe in the paranormal. But if you count Allah'u'abha/God among the paranormal, I would say yeah. That will probably net me some downvotes, I'm sure.
Ghosts and such, I don't know. I've seen a lot of weird shit, but it's more likely that my mind was playing tricks on me. Also until five and a half years ago, I was a heavy drug addict and then alcoholic so I wasn't exactly the most reliable narrator for my own life.
As far as the more far-fetched paranormal things like faeries, vampires, werewolves, etc., the WoD cornucopia, no. Absolutely not. As @Admiral said, magic and ghosts aren't real, and we're all nerds. In fact, I used to think it was very sad that White Wolf had to put that disclaimer in the front of their books regarding the existence of those sorts of creatures.
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I'm Agnostic. I would never judge someone for their religious beliefs regarding the creation and maintenance of humanity by potential Creator figures.
That being said? People who believe in invisible goobs floating around watching us or interacting with us? That's paranoid ignorance leftover from the dark ages before science.
It's like believing in Bigfoot. The overwhelming, complete absence of evidence is evidence of absence.
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@Admiral said in Do you believe in paranormal things?:
I'm Agnostic. I would never judge someone for their religious beliefs regarding the creation and maintenance of humanity by potential Creator figures.
That being said? People who believe in invisible goobs floating around watching us or interacting with us? That's paranoid ignorance leftover from the dark ages before science.
It's like believing in Bigfoot. The overwhelming, complete absence of evidence is evidence of absence.
I sincerely agree with that. I don't even think God really watches us all the time or has much of an interest in what we do on a day-to-day basis. However, this isn't really a religious discussion.
It is very paranoid to think that we're watched all the time by spirits of the dead/floaty beings/whatever. I think people have guilty consciences about what they do, and they manifest those thoughts as belief in angels, demons, ghosts, and whatnot. Like I said, I've seen some weird shit, but in hindsight, it was probably all of the drugs and booze.
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@Admiral said in Do you believe in paranormal things?:
It's like believing in Bigfoot. The overwhelming, complete absence of evidence is evidence of absence.
Clearly you don't live in the PNW. It's actually illegal to shoot Bigfoot here. Why would that be a law if he didn't exist , huh? HUH?
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@Arkandel Yes I do.
I was raised in an old gold rush town in the Sierra Nevada Mountains, when I was walking to elementary school we had to be careful of the pit mines that were uncovered and open for thousands of foot drops of death that gold was taken out of at one point in the 19th century. Occasionally people, usually drunk adults, sometimes kids, would fall in them and die.
We had a lot of ghost stories, and I lived in a house that was literally as old as the town was. We had two ghost visitors that I still recall to this day with near perfect clarity:
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An old lady who used to sit in my mothers rocking chair and talk to me while I colored, or drew, or played with my toys. I would talk to her and a family member, or a visiting friend would look into the room to see whom I was talking to, see the rocking chair rocking, and ask whom I was talking to. I would point to her and she would tell me that "They can't see me because they choose not to."
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There was a rather lovely young black haired woman I used to catch watching my sister and I in the same house, she'd spy on us around corners and doorways but never really interacted with us. She /did/ however interact with my mother once. My mom worked two jobs at the time, one as a waitress at a restaurant during the day, and another as a bartender at night. She came home one night to refresh her make up for her second job and she was in the bathroom and when she looked up into the mirror to put on eyeliner she saw the black haired woman drowned the bathtub. My mother proceeded to flip out and we moved shortly thereafter.
Afterwards, we learned the black haired lady had a habit of scaring the piss out of young mothers, and behaving even more violently towards men who partied a bit to much. She would roam the whole neighborhood, not just our house.
I believe in Ghost's. I don't necessarily believe they are souls trapped on this earth, maybe just energy left over that can interact with those sensitive to it, maybe just EM fields that fuck with our brains (But that doesn't explain how the rocking chair would start and stop by itself).
I believe there's a lot of stuff that science has yet to explain, and maybe some things will always be beyond our understanding.
I do know that as I've gotten older I've experienced less of it, but... that doesn't make what happened when I was young less real.
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I used to suffer from fairly regular sleep paralysis, and as such had quite a firm belief in ghosts, as I'd wake up in the middle of the night and see people standing at the foot of my bed watching me sleep.
This got worse after we bought a house from a widow, and I was sleeping in the room hubby died in.
That was all before I learned that this was a very common hallucination that people who suffered from sleep paralysis suffered from, and the one rewiring my vcr every night was probably my meth head roomate and not an irritated ghost sick of us watching Kindergarden Kop every day.
So I got over it. Until I moved into my current apartment a week after seeing Paranormal Activity. It's the first time I've lived with hot water heating and I didn't sleep for about 3 months from all the little noises going on.
Now I rock white noise, ear plugs and a sleep mask and can sleep through even the most paranormal of infestations. Fuck you, ghosts!
I don't believe in them these days, but I try to, it makes scary movies more fun.
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I never REALLY believed in ghosts and such my entire life. But there have been some really strange situations that have come after the deaths of a loved one for example that sometimes make me rethink that stance. When my father died all the things he use to bitch about in the house didn't work that night. Things like lights not turning on in one section of the house that night but then they do turn on in the morning. Turning the heater on but it not kicking in until sometime early in the morning even though it appeared to be working. Sleeping and dreaming of a visit from him and then waking up and finding the bedroom door that was locked when I was asleep sitting wide open, the lights in the hallway on and the heater now running.
When I lived in Japan there was a lot of haunted places that felt haunted but other than that type of stuff I never believed in vampires, or patchwork people, werewolves or the like.
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I've long lost the desire to engage with this community, and I suppose this subject only confirms my decision. But here goes, for whatever that's worth.
The current materialistic paradigm is blind to the reality of the world. Materialistic science will never find answers unless it accepts that these areas of research require a radical shift in paradigm and approach.
I've had plenty of experiences with the paranormal or supernatural, enough to be convinced to a surety that these things not only exist, they're much closer to the foundation of reality outside of this material pocket of existence.
For me, that's 2+2=4, not something one should be "keeping one's minds open about" or "remaining skeptical." I feel no desire whatsoever to convince anyone of this; there's tons of proof out there, there's exercises you can do for yourself to check and see, it's actually fairly easy if you're motivated enough. Less effort than masturbating daily, if you try something like astral projection. So I have no understanding for those who choose not to. I pity them.
Convincing others is a fairly futile task, no matter how many credentials one has, because they'll be swallowed and spit out by the dominant materialistic paradigm. There was recently a neuroscientist who had an NDE experience, they ruined his career and completely discredited the guy instead of listening to what he's got to say. I'm disinclined to cast my pearls into such an atmosphere.
Those who truly have the proof of something existing on the other side, will shy away from the public eye, or from proving anything to the skeptics. It's almost an evolutionary survival trait, because that's the kind of people who were burned at the stake or crucified in the past.
Vampires, werewolves and fairies, those are obviously imaginary. Just so someone doesn't quote my post with "so you think vampires are real, you just said so!!!1"
Kundalini, though. Kundalini is some serious shit. Ghosts exist, life after death exists. Various types of non-corporeal entities exist. Sleep paralysis is only a fancy term for "we don't fucking know what's happening here but putting a name on it makes it all tidy and sciency." Astral projection is real. Existence beyond the material world is a vast, enormous spectrum of various degrees of subtlety and being. The material world is a tiny speck of shit somewhere at the bottom of it all. Knowing this, I pity those who are closed off from such knowledge.
I am not particularly interested in discussing any of this, but I thought someone should fucking say something that isn't "we all nicely agree, sensible chuckle." Especially when the view everyone's agreeing with is so closed-minded and shallow.
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@wanderer I believe in the supernatural. I am not particularly religious (well, not in the go-to-church way) but I am rather spiritual. I've seen and experienced things that make me believe in the things beyond. I mostly try to suppress this side around people who are either hardcore Christians or staunch atheists because, in the end, they are both radically against it. The derision and the mockery comes from the same wellspring. I don't believe in ectoplasm and shit like that, but I do have my beliefs' version of spirits, ghosts, divinity and purpose in life. People's experiences with the beyond vary wildly and so I never try to impose my viewpoint on others, but I do understand what you meant about skepticism or just 'being open to the experience'. Some people don't believe in a higher being, that's fine, it's their belief. I do, though.
Science can't and won't explain everything because not everything has a reason to be or makes sense in the world. Rationality only goes so far. That's why religion still exists in the world where science is king.
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@wanderer To be fair, sleep paralysis is a thing. It's an understood thing, even.
That is not to say all the things people attribute to being sleep paralysis are actually that.
I've had it on and off through my life. I've also had a distinct, different-but-similar experience that people love to ascribe to it that was, uh, I will just say, "having the actual experiential basis for comparison, these things were very much not the same".
Considering the experience, I really, really wish I could believe it was 'just sleep paralysis' (which in itself is awful and Very Much Not Fun).
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When I say I don't believe, it doesn't mean I feel an inclination to mock those who do. I've even come across moments when I've wondered myself. But all of them had in common of being during the night, while I was pretty sleepy, and so I'm leaning towards the assumption that it was my brain playing tricks on me. Brains do that.
I'm a skeptic at heart. This goes both ways, though.
ETA: Okay, sometimes I do feel inclined to mock. But just if its fucking ridiculous.
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It's not about what I believe in, it's about what I know to be true. I had to know for sure, so I got off my ass and found out.
@surreality I'm not saying sleep paralysis doesn't happen, I've just seen the term thrown about by skeptics as some way to disprove the experience. "Oh no, it's just sleep paralysis, that's a documented scientific phenomenon!" It's a bunch of materialistic rationalizations stuck within the limitations of the paradigm.
When we sleep, the connection between the physical and spiritual body is weakened. This same weakening is part of the process leading to an astral projection, which is why it can happen spontaneously. Precursors are sensation of floating, or when you lie down on your back and feel like you're sinking through the bed, and so on. Malicious entities made of crude emotional essence abuse this state in order to feed on the fear of the sleeper. They freeze this state and disrupt the natural return to the physical body, in order to cause fear in the sleeper and exert power over them. If the sleeper doesn't give them fear, they have nothing to feed on, especially if there are positive emotions. Those are like poison to them, because they are the antithesis of their being.
That's sleep paralysis, variations on this theme with a similar mechanism and purpose. It can also be a misalignment during reintegration with the physical body. It is a supernatural phenomenon, whatever the gradation. Sure you can find parallel effects in the material world, things that can be observed from a strictly material standpoint, but that doesn't mean they're the whole sum of the experience.
Even though it's misguided, the materialistic approach of "it's just sleep paralysis" might actually work to lessen the intensity of the experience. If you think you understand it and it's no big deal, you might disregard it and won't produce the fear the entity needs to feed on. So, ironically, the approach might work. If the entity is powerful enough, it might not.
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@wanderer Not sure if we're saying the same thing or not, quite.
The scientific explanation is, in fact, a thing that happens. It's not something else. It is its very own, very real, thing.
What I'm saying is: people probably are attributing more experiences to it than are likely actually that.
As in, 'there is an explanation for this thing, therefore all experiences similar to this must be that'.
What I'm saying is: 'there is an explanation for a specific experience; some similar experiences may or may not be that, but not all similar experiences are that, and we risk overlooking other real issues if we simply lump them all together and stop examining the details of individual experiences because we think we have an explanation that more or less fits if you stand on your head and squint a little'.
Basically, there's room for both to exist: the scientific brain processes, and something else.
What you're describing isn't actually sleep paralysis, but some of the things people also attribute to it. Sleep paralysis is it's own, real thing. It's just a different thing.
Probably the best way to describe what I mean here is to use a basic analogy: I can have $5 made up of a single $5 bill, five $1 bills, or any random assortment of coinage and so on. I still have $5 (the broad category of experience). How I came to have $5 (the explanation for the experience) can be different, but there are a lot of valid means of having $5; there are a number of specific, and sometimes vastly different, experiences under that broader umbrella (the experience of having a $5 bill, the experience of having 20 quarters, etc.).
Oh fucking well.
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@surreality said in Do you believe in paranormal things?:
Basically, there's room for both to exist: the scientific brain processes, and something else.
What I mean is, they do both exist. Concurrently. Science doesn't explain all the aspects of the phenomenon, they only grasp the crudest aspects that reflect on the material/physical plane, and fit safely within their paradigm. The actual experiences may vary in gradation, intensity, severity and so on, but they have both components.
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@wanderer I can see that -- and it looks like we're mostly on the same page -- but I don't necessarily think they're inherently both things that are going on at once in every case.
(Mainly, I note this because what you describe is much like the 'this was a different thing' experience I mentioned. The rest were more or less, 'gah, crap, wtf!!' which is not... the same.)
Oh fucking well.
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@surreality said in Do you believe in paranormal things?:
(Mainly, I note this because what you describe is much like the 'this was a different thing' experience I mentioned. The rest were more or less, 'gah, crap, wtf!!' which is not... the same.)
That would be more what I described as some sort of misalignment of the spiritual body with the physical. Maybe there wasn't an entity involved, I don't know. But the mechanism is the same, it's because we undergo this process while sleeping, and all these aspects are completely ignored by any scientific approach. To be honest, I haven't had one, but I have done astral projection and I've heard horror stories about what it can attract (precisely because of how easily this inbetween state can be exploited). It's the same basic mechanism, except with non-spontaneous AP you're doing it voluntarily and have only yourself to blame.
When I was experimenting, I talked to two women who had a lot of experience with AP. The first one, her son asked her to please "make all these people leave, the house is full of them." She'd been doing a lot of AP and attracted so many entities that they started bothering her son. That's when she knew she had to stop. The other woman weakened the connection with her physical body, so she spontaneously projected while driving a car. She was watching her physical body from a few feet above, unable to do anything. Barely managed to regain control in time not to crash. Those experiences dissuaded me from going any further with the practice.
So, I'm using a bit of extrapolation from knowing the basic mechanism, and from having over a decade of gathered knowledge and related experiences.
