Fanbase entitlement

[Auspice]

@Insomnia said in Fanbase entitlement:

A quick Google search...

Only reference to Star Citizen in there was someone asking why the backlash on NMS when there'd been no updates to SC for a while.

Still not a death threat. More of a 'Why are people so broken up about a 1 month delay on No Man's Sky when Star Citizen has languished for so long?'

Oh wait. There's this: http://mmofallout.com/derek-smart-indie-devs-and-death-threats/
A guy who criticized Star Citizen received a death threat for speaking out against the game/dev.
Facepalming over here.

[Insomnia]

Yeah, I only took a pic of the first link, it was more for the number of searches rather than the actual ones.

Sadly I think death threats about anything popular is the new Rule 34; if it exists, there is a fanbase who has made a death threat about it.

Star Citizen though has been worked on for so long though, and they have promised so much that I have a feeling the reaction to No Man's Sky is going to be mild. People have already sued to get the money back since the game is supposedly so different to what it originally was supposed to be. It made so much more money than No Man's Sky, and it's been so much more delayed than No Man's Sky was.

I mean no one is entitled to make death threats, but if you give someone the money for a Subway sub, and they come back with a hamburger from McDonalds, you get to be upset it isn't what you paid for. Sure they are both sandwich like and you won't be hungry after, but that doesn't mean you have to be satisfied by the burger.

No Man's Sky was made by a small indie dev team who wanted to do something awesome, and that's what people paid for, so I think in this case fans do have the right to feel entitled to the game they paid for. But they didn't get it. What was advertised on the tin, did not come in the box. And if they got it on PS4? Good luck getting a refund. And if they get it, good luck getting a full refund. AND if they get a refund on the PS4 and it gets better, or someone buys them a disc as a gift later they can never play the game on a ps4 again.

Now if the person has bought this after reviews, shame on them. But if they pre-ordered, because of all the nifty things the game said it was going to have? Then yeah, I think people do have a right to be upset about it. Never to death threats, but to make big lists about what isn't in there? Oh yeah.

But then again people take it too far, they always do. Like with the guy suing because suicide squad didn't have the scenes that were in the trailer. Thing is, the movie wasn't crowd-sourced, and you can't pre-order a movie. And a movie doesn't cost $80 bucks. (Yeah, I realize a AAA is $60 USD, but I'm Canadian, they costs us $80 of our pretty plastic money) not to mention the fans who liked the idea that was presented so they put in more money to have it made.

TL;DR But yeah, mainly see Star Citizen for "They lied." and it's not even out yet.

PS. I like No Man's Sky. I can just understand why people are pissed. I don't think the devs are evil, I just think their eyes were too big for their stomachs.

[Auspice]

I've followed NMS for a while. Since that first 'trailer,' which I took for what it was: 'Here's what we want to pull off.'

Everyone does it.
I mean, Apple is pulling the 'iPhone 7 Pro' because they couldn't make it what they wanted, so there's just gonna be the 7 and the 7Plus.

How often does a movie trailer match the movie precisely? I mean, I get wanting what the original trailers imply. I remember being somewhat let down by Black & White (I still enjoyed it, mind) because even their 'gameplay' trailers didn't match what there was later.

But NMS, at its core, advertised as a single-person exploration game. I think a lot of these people saw it as a "replacement" for Star Citizen or EVE. Because for all the people who don't like it (and claim Hello Games lied), I know just as many people like me who got exactly what they wanted.

[Insomnia]

Movie trailers generally don't, but then again the people who make the trailer aren't always the ones who make the movie. It's just another example of people being entitled.

For games though it is rarely "this is what we hope to have", at least it's not phrased that that way, it's "this is what we are going to have." Most people aren't going to take being told something will be in a game as it might be in the game, if we can put it in there.

Because it wasn't advertised as a single person game. If it was, they wouldn't have had to try and hide the online bits under stickers hiding the online play option. While you may take it as the dev saying it's something they want to have, they never say that. They say that this is what it will have. And if people put money towards what they were told anything would have, I think they have the right to be mad, and at least get their money back.

Just people who take it to the extreme with death threats are dicks.

But people in general are becoming more entitled. Every day I see a story about someone going up to someone else and telling them off because 1) They parked in a handicapped spot and walked out of their car, 2) they are fat and it offends the person, 3) They are depressed and they are bringing that person down, 4) @Cupcake 's whole dog in grocery store thing.

It's not just fanbases that are entitled, it's people in general.

[Arkandel]

@Insomnia There's a flipside to it though and it's...well, it's just ranting online. It doesn't mean anything if a tiny little (albeit very vocal) subgroup is 'very mad'. Who cares?

If they cross into real life, doxxing, stalking then yes - it's a police matter. But those are, even for the lofty standards of those over-entitled people, way on the extreme side; the vast majority of it is just talk.

I dunno. I get celebrities these days need to have a 'social network presence' {tm} but they could hand it out to a professional to handle on their behalf and separate themselves from the toxicity. Then if that crazy-ass lady is cursing their man-bits to rot and fall off because the last product they put out didn't match her expectations, well, okay!

[Ganymede]

@Auspice said in Fanbase entitlement:

But NMS, at its core, advertised as a single-person exploration game. I think a lot of these people saw it as a "replacement" for Star Citizen or EVE. Because for all the people who don't like it (and claim Hello Games lied), I know just as many people like me who got exactly what they wanted.

NMS is exactly what I expected, and exactly what I wanted.

I am very happy I don't have to put up with 13-year-old mongs. Or any other fucking idiots I've bumped into while playing games on the Internet.

I mean, you guys not included. Honest.

(Not all of you, at least.)

[Insomnia]

@Arkandel Sure, a lot of it is online. Then a Youtuber gets killed by one of their loving fans. Or a Moviestar. It's not really a new thing.

Personally I generally don't pre-order any more because someone says so many times something cool will be in a game and it isn't. Or it wasn't tested right before it came out and just had a shitty launch. Also why if I kickstart a game it's generally not as much as a full game might be.

But honestly words online or not, as soon as a fanbase starts thinking of something they like as belonging to them because they enjoy it, it's a slippery slope.

[Auspice]

@Ganymede said in Fanbase entitlement:

@Auspice said in Fanbase entitlement:

But NMS, at its core, advertised as a single-person exploration game. I think a lot of these people saw it as a "replacement" for Star Citizen or EVE. Because for all the people who don't like it (and claim Hello Games lied), I know just as many people like me who got exactly what they wanted.

NMS is exactly what I expected, and exactly what I wanted.

I am very happy I don't have to put up with 13-year-old mongs. Or any other fucking idiots I've bumped into while playing games on the Internet.

I mean, you guys not included. Honest.

(Not all of you, at least.)

Right?
Now, an instanced/server multiplayer, where I could control who I play with? That'd be cool.

But I enjoy that I get to play this massive space game and not constantly be dealing with griefers.

[ThatGuyThere]

@Arkandel
I agree with this completely, if it is just people voicing an opinion no matter how crudely they express it or asinine their my be, I will say good for them that is their right and if that is the image they want to present well that is on them but I will never say they shouldn't voice it.
The second it crosses the line between voicing an opinion into threats or even worse actions like stalking then I am 100 percent in favor of those folks getting arrested, and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, but that also then no longer is an issue of fanbase entitlement but of criminal behavior.

[Arkandel]

@ThatGuyThere said in Fanbase entitlement:

@Arkandel
I agree with this completely, if it is just people voicing an opinion no matter how crudely they express it or asinine their my be, I will say good for them that is their right and if that is the image they want to present well that is on them but I will never say they shouldn't voice it.

Please note you aren't agreeing with me here. I never said anything like 'good for them, it's their right' for people who are being complete asshats, wishing someone's children to get cancer or whatever because their game's loading screens take too long. It is those people's right, yes, but they are asshats.

What I did say is that ultimately and unless they escalate their asshattery into criminal real-life actions (physically stalking, revealing private information, etc) it's just text written on a screen. It's like an (even more) evil version of WORA, and it can be ignored the same way as any other trolling.

[ThatGuyThere]

@Arkandel
I never said they weren't asshats for their opinion that is what the phrase "that is on them" implies.
I just prefer asshats to openly self identify because it makes them easier to identify and avoid.
Yes they totally are asshats.
And yes I totally support their right to be asshats both for the philosophical reason of free speech and the practical reason it making it easier for me to avoid them.

[Insomnia]

@Arkandel said in Fanbase entitlement:

What I did say is that ultimately and unless they escalate their asshattery into criminal real-life actions (physically stalking, revealing private information, etc) it's just text written on a screen. It's like an (even more) evil version of WORA, and it can be ignored the same way as any other trolling.

The problem with saying it's only text, is that cyber bullying is a very real thing now, when it really wasn't an issue before.

Sure chasing people off of a social media platform, driving people to suicide, is all just words in the end and not criminal... but not just words.

Most of the time when people get dogpiled on by a few dozen people they might be able to shrug it off and ignore it. But a few hundred or thousand? When does it become not just words?

[Thenomain]

@Insomnia

The problem with saying it's only text, is that cyber bullying is a very real thing now, when it really wasn't an issue before.

Before when? It was an issue before any of us were even little sperms and eggs. You may note this little chestnut:

• Sticks and stones may break my bones but names will never hurt me.

This is a lesson on harassment over things that are "only words", and that's from a time where we had good old fashioned personal attacks, rumor, and innuendo.

What I think is different now is that the attack vector has changed, and with the anonymous component and with the larger audience I think this is why we're seeing more about it. That said, damn if I don't consider myself lucky that I had to live through only one suicide when I went to High School. Things were much better in my day.

But words still hurt, and text had nothing to do with it.

[Insomnia]

True enough, but I still wouldn't want to go to high school now.

ETA my bullies in high school were more physical; pushing me so I slipped and now have a Barbie knee, and thinking it was funny to stick a live earwig in my sandwich.

Still rather have had to deal with that than what kids go through today.

[Misadventure]

Likewise, that old chestnut has proven to not be so true. Inflicting stress is a primate tactic. It isn't seen just a rating on a 1 to 10 scale of how that individual rates your current behavior. It's seen as a threat to belonging, to being part of the social group, aka the survival group. Primates know this, and use it often.

Saying you can just decide to ignore it is like claiming that you can just decide not to react in the least to a baby screech.

[Arkandel]

@Misadventure On the other hand isn't part of dealing with stress of all sorts, including social pressure, part of well... life?

Obviously I'm not saying the extremes - death threats and whatnot as discussed in this thread - are in any way acceptable. But all of us went through high school and I reckon most didn't do so unscarred; we got a few bumps and bruises on the way, some of them emotional and others even more literal; this may be highly unpleasant but the process itself taught us how to deal with it, how to cope, which comes in really handy in the grown-up world.

Yes, we can (maybe?) get rid of that nasty asshole in forth grade who keeps making jokes or the mean girl who spreads rumors in our expense by talking to a teacher, or a parent or... someone. But then who's going to protect us from that asshole boss or senior manager later on in life? There won't always be provisions and alternatives, we have to deal with it ourselves and if the training wheels never came off before then we'll be that less prepared to do so.

Hell, asking for help is part of the learning curve too, and not something everyone necessarily realises is a perfectly viable alternative.

[Ganymede]

@Arkandel said in Fanbase entitlement:

But all of us went through high school and I reckon most didn't do so unscarred; we got a few bumps and bruises on the way, some of them emotional and others even more literal; this may be highly unpleasant but the process itself taught us how to deal with it, how to cope, which comes in really handy in the grown-up world.

I went through relatively unscathed, but I went to a nerd school.

Summer camp was different, but I coped by hanging out with the bullies instead.

I'm not particularly proud of joining the Dark Side, but I more than once steered the bullies towards unleashing their idiocy on objects, rather than people.

[Misadventure]

@Arkandel Yes, dealing with stress, be it being late to work, or not having enough nutritious food to allow your children to grow healthy and strong, is all a part of surviving.

However, my point was that you can't just decide that stress won't affect you. You can't decide that it won't affect your health. Anonymous harassment, and indirect harassment, has a reduced stress cost to the harasser, and so it feeds directly into a cost/benefit behavior where abuse is dolled out freely. As people often say, you wouldn't say that to my face, or in front of your family. Why, the social costs are back in place. The cost of a fist in the face is back in place. Just having to speak up and say the words is back up in place.

You can take the stance that whatever is common or typical, or even evolutionarily advantageous (see rape, cheating, theft, violence, stressing) behavior for humans is acceptable, my view of human behavior is too dark to not strive for better.

Article on bullying as an evolutionary strategy

[Ganymede]

@Misadventure said in Fanbase entitlement:

However, my point was that you can't just decide that stress won't affect you. You can't decide that it won't affect your health.

You can decide on what measures to take to counter or avoid the stress, however.

[Misadventure]

Definitely. Or at least gaining skill at such is a good life goal.
And some people are more vulnerable, or more resilient, and so on.

And some are OP. Owl.