Mostly Mage, Partially Descent Mux

[ThatOneDude]

@Ganymede Its cool, my response to you was mostly only in regards to the "keep mages in line with Seers".

Great idea but if you'd do that to mages you should make sure all the other spheres are kept in line with similar means. <-- This is to Ganymede

Anyone that's read any of the 2e books will know that head to head, in a PvP or PvE type scenario that the mage isn't the sphere at the top of the food chain. With enough XP and specialization, sure you could be badass but so could all the other spheres. <-- This is just generally in response to everyone that thinks Mage's are somehow made so much more badass than every other sphere out there.

[Arkandel]

@ThatOneDude I don't agree with that estimate. Sure, if we're starving XP across the board other spheres can have an advantage simply because their power curve climbs at a faster rate, but especially for MU* where you pretty much need some sort of progression to maintain player interest it's a very artificial way of looking at it.

Even in 2.0 if we're into the 60+ post-CGen XP ranges and assuming equal player competence I'd take a Mage built toward a certain job (combat, investigative, whatever) than any other class. I've found those who disagree base their objections on mages who are completely bad or unprepared at what they're supposed to be doing, yet the other class isn't; for example who don't realise they are being targeted by Vampires (but the Kindred know about Mages and their own weaknesses), or who are caught flat-footed and have nothing ready for the occasion (but the attacker is ready to go), etc.

[Ganymede]

@ThatOneDude said in The Descent MUX:

Great idea but if you'd do that to mages you should make sure all the other spheres are kept in line with similar means. <-- This is to Ganymede

Agreed, although Vampires and Werewolves can keep themselves in line with intra-sphere in-fighting over territory, which I don't see happening with the same frequency in a Mage game.

[Coin]

@Ganymede said in The Descent MUX:

@ThatOneDude said in The Descent MUX:

Great idea but if you'd do that to mages you should make sure all the other spheres are kept in line with similar means. <-- This is to Ganymede

Agreed, although Vampires and Werewolves can keep themselves in line with intra-sphere in-fighting over territory, which I don't see happening with the same frequency in a Mage game.

Depends on the rarity of Hallows.

[Ganymede]

@Coin said in The Descent MUX:

Depends on the rarity of Hallows.

Touche.

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@Arkandel said in The Descent MUX:

I've found those who disagree base their objections on mages who are completely bad or unprepared at what they're supposed to be doing, yet the other class isn't; * * * .

Mages that specialize at combat can be really good, but a vampire or werewolf who isn't focused in these areas are significantly better than a Mage who isn't. That's what I mean when I say that Mages are squishy.

Vampires and Werewolves are still hard to kill, even if they aren't geared towards severe beatdowns.

[Coin]

@Ganymede said in The Descent MUX:

@Coin said in The Descent MUX:

Depends on the rarity of Hallows.

Touche.

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@Arkandel said in The Descent MUX:

I've found those who disagree base their objections on mages who are completely bad or unprepared at what they're supposed to be doing, yet the other class isn't; * * * .

Mages that specialize at combat can be really good, but a vampire or werewolf who isn't focused in these areas are significantly better than a Mage who isn't. That's what I mean when I say that Mages are squishy.

Vampires and Werewolves are still hard to kill, even if they aren't geared towards severe beatdowns.

Also, many of the effects that protect werewolves and vampires are natural aspects of being supernatural creatures (vampire's hardiness, werewolf resilience and deadliness) whereas they are things Mages have to prepare and use magic for. matching a werewolf's sheer healing capacity is several orders of magnitude more than the average Life Mage can manage, for example.

[Arkandel]

@Ganymede: But that's an arbitrary metric - you are right, but you are applying a very specific use case then claim there is no overall imbalance. I don't mean that you are comparing apples to oranges (although in a sense you are) but let me offer an example.

You are correct in saying a Mekhet specialised in investigation can survive an attack better than an Acanthus similarly oriented in a white-room setting; however they would still both lose to a combat-oriented opponent of equal comparative power so ... what does that matter? However in the mean time the latter will be far superior in actual investigations, and even more so if she has a little more XP to diversify her Arcana; if that wasn't enough Fate can be an incredibly flexible tool both defensively and offensively if she has time to plan it out as opposed to just facing the white-room scenario.

In practical terms for a MU* it's not even close. I know you've STed for Mage so you know how it is; in other spheres characters' tool sets are far more limited. The scope has changed between 1.0 and 2.0, yes, Mages no longer get to hang a zillion successes on themselves which do everything, but the power gap is only scaled down from 'lol' to 'ouch, unless'.

This is something mixed sphere games will need to factor in. I'm not saying it can't or shouldn't be done, but it ought to be a well considered factor.

[Cobalt]

@Admiral said in The Descent MUX:

Mage isn't overpowered.

You can -totally- kill a Mage who for some reason forgets their hanging spells, is asleep, and somehow fails the difficult to fail rolls to avoid being surprised.

You have no idea how mage 2.0 works do you? Or even mage 1.0, for the matter. You're acting like every fucking mage out there can have hanging spells (tip: They can't, that is the purview of a time mage, and that's always been that way). And as another thing: magic is no longer instant, all spells are extended by default and you either have to have a lot time magic to do it instant or spend reaches to get there.

[Deleted]

My bad. I was under the mistaken impression that Mages were more powerful than other splats.

I was wrong in believing that in the past, Mage PCs joining plots with other splats tended to take them over with their higher power levels.

I was wrong in believing that on games with metaplots, Mages tended to take over them in both owod and nwod.

I was mistaken in believing that a spirit mage was better at doing things in the spirit world than a werewolf.

And Death mages aren't better at dealing with ghosts than everyone else.

And Mind mages can't effectively shut down all forms of mental attack from other splats.

And all those Legacies that I thought were OP because they gave crazy effects without technically being magic? Nope, they weren't OP either.

[Ganymede]

@Arkandel said in The Descent MUX:

... you are right, but you are applying a very specific use case then claim there is no overall imbalance. I don't mean that you are comparing apples to oranges (although in a sense you are) but let me offer an example.

My example is meant to reinforce my point ... which is that Mages are squishy. Very squishy. This is a glaring weakness in Mages, as it has been ever since D&D arbitrarily decided to give them d4 hit dice.

I didn't talk about losing to equal-powered combat-oriented opponents. At all. I said that Mages were squishy, and this is a serious consideration when you're playing any RPG. You can overcome it with careful preparation and strategy, but you are clearly compensating for that weakness. And that's a weakness that, in my opinion, balances the games out.

You could make a damn-fine Werewolf with a huge skill-set, and make a Vampire that can survive well in all situations. I'm not so sure I could do the same with a Mage, but you can make a Mage that is really good at one or two things.

They still remain squishy, and this is a huge issue when you have to contend with Seers and mortal institutions that could make your existence very difficult.

[ThatOneDude]

@Admiral said in The Descent MUX:

My bad. I was under the mistaken impression that Mages were more powerful than other splats.

I was wrong in believing that in the past, Mage PCs joining plots with other splats tended to take them over with their higher power levels.

I was wrong in believing that on games with metaplots, Mages tended to take over them in both owod and nwod.

I was mistaken in believing that a spirit mage was better at doing things in the spirit world than a werewolf.

And Death mages aren't better at dealing with ghosts than everyone else.

And Mind mages can't effectively shut down all forms of mental attack from other splats.

And all those Legacies that I thought were OP because they gave crazy effects without technically being magic? Nope, they weren't OP either.

But as stated elsewhere in this thread, if you focus like that with a Mage , chances are you'll be lacking in many other areas. So if you wanted to be the most badass shaman in the game to prove to the werewolf that you are superior, you'd then have to face it in combat. In combat if that werewolf were to drop into death rage it's pretty much be game over for most pc's . More for one not set up for direct combat. That's where a lot of the balance would come into play. Even if you created a fantastic legacy to be the best it's still a HUGE XP investment.

[Duckula]

Having looked at their rotes and such (from what I could from the eyebleeding gold text of the book) I'd say their rotes tend to be more useful than other equivalent abilities, (okay, by a lot) but mages aren't meant to be played with 700 xp or on a mush format either. In tabletop if they survive long enough to master multiple arcana that's supposed to be a big deal. In MU*s they have no opposition or threat, most of the time, it feels like, it's like oh, I failed my roll to show off, ouch, bashing damage~

They do totes tend to take over RP on games though, I have seen that before. That's a problem with people who play mage not the material itself, though.

[Auspice]

Well, the other big issue of Mage on MU*s and why they're able to be so 'overpowered'... I have yet to see a multi-sphere place that even takes Paradox into consideration. Or enforces it if they claim to.

So their biggest drawback, on many games, just doesn't even exist.

[ThatOneDude]

@Duckula said in The Descent MUX:

Having looked at their rotes and such (from what I could from the eyebleeding gold text of the book) I'd say their rotes tend to be more useful than other equivalent abilities, (okay, by a lot) but mages aren't meant to be played with 700 xp or on a mush format either. In tabletop if they survive long enough to master multiple arcana that's supposed to be a big deal. In MU*s they have no opposition or threat, most of the time, it feels like, it's like oh, I failed my roll to show off, ouch, bashing damage~

They do totes tend to take over RP on games though, I have seen that before. That's a problem with people who play mage not the material itself, though.

Are any of the spheres meant to be played in a 700xp mush format? Because comments like this make it seem like the other spheres make sense at crazy amounts of XP. More so in a 2e world... Have you seen a 2e vampire with 100xp?

[Duckula]

@ThatOneDude I was referring to MU* WoD setups with 1.0 like TR, or hell even FC now. They're already up to 300-400 XP by now, I think? That's just a problem with dinosaurs on any sort of game like that where newbies are allowed to 'catch up' because otherwise they never /can/, it's catch 22.

I haven't looked at 2.0 vampire too much but yeah I can imagine a 100 XP vampire is really strong. (Edit: Or CAN be, I should say.)

@Auspice Yeah Paradox never matters on any game I've seen mages on, that's what I meant about 'oh noes, bashing damage' any damage you ever take outside of combat on a mush never matters because you can assume it was healed before anything else happens scenewise, either by natural or a character taking care of it actively. That and it's just never substantial damage, what's 3 bashing gonna do?

[Thenomain]

@Cobaltasaurus said in The Descent MUX:

magic is no longer instant, all spells are extended by default and you either have to have a lot time magic to do it instant or spend reaches to get there.

One reach, and you always get one reach for free. Casting as a Rote also gives you 5 - (Spell's Max Arcana Level) extra reaches for free. So, really, I don't see any reason not to cast every spell as Instant unless there's something creatively messy going on. As reaches can also flip any spell aspect from the basic to the extended chart, I can see good reasons to give it up and take your time (especially for expanding distance or duration), but when you're jumped throwing the most basic spell you can is easy.

Also, new Rotes cost 1 xp. One XP. That's ludicrously inexpensive.

The creative difference I'm seeing between nWoD Mage 1 and 2 is the use of Yantra (oWoD's Foci) which is deeply limited by your Gnosis. Sure, it takes only one reach to turn a spell's duration from Instant to 1 Turn, but any more than that and you'll be taking die penalty on top of die penalty, and can climb only so far out of the hole. Do you want to cripple a Mage? Gag them. Take away their favorite tool. They still get their Gnosis + (Arcana) to roll and successes can directly become damage, but -- oh, yeah, that fireball can be dodged.

I could never wrap my brain around nWoD Mage, but CoD Mage is an easy chart with two main components (reach and changing the parameters) and a few minor one (enhancements, adding skill for rotes, etc.). All it takes is a GM with a mildly wicked view of the world and Mage can be a game of challenges very, very easily.

I don't see the "kill a Mage on sight" rule being necessary anymore. Trust them basically as much as you would a Vampire or Werewolf in a pack. Which, er, means not a whole lot.

[Misadventure]

Actually, I think it is in part the game material. Mage is at the pinnacle of the "let me explain the cosmos to you" in the game rules. No one has a better understanding than they can. Players run with that, and the ability to sense and analyze and so on. Meanwhile others feel like they've just been outclassed.

I'd really like to see some "mysteries" where there is just little a mage can do about certain things.

EG a Sin-Eater should have some relationship, some innate thing, some capacity relating to death that no mage can touch, or even understand via magic.

[Wizz]

@Misadventure said in The Descent MUX:

Actually, I think it is in part the game material. Mage is at the pinnacle of the "let me explain the cosmos to you" in the game rules. No one has a better understanding than they can.

That's a very oWoD Mage attitude. From what I've read, it runs against the spirit of everything Dave Brookshaw and Matthew McFarland have said about CoD Mage; one who thinks they can explain the cosmos should have the game board flipped upside down on them. Sure, with the right Arcana they can have access to a much broader view of the CoD cosmology, but it's like a Neanderthal with access to the Hubble Telescope. The Hubris of that caveman thinking he fully understands what he sees should break him.

[surreality]

@Wizz said in The Descent MUX:

Sure, with the right Arcana they can have access to a much broader view of the CoD cosmology, but it's like a Neanderthal with access to the Hubble Telescope. The Hubris of that caveman thinking he fully understands what he sees should break him.

The problem is, this never happens on a MUX from what I've seen.

[Auspice]

My primary experience with Mages on multi-sphere games are either:
'Let me come in and rule the plot and look how amazing I am.' / (if Staff) 'I am going to flood this +request with so many different ways that I am trying to bend/break the rules and hoping you don't notice so I can solve this plot thing in one fell swoop LIKE A GOD'

or

'IT'S NOT FAIR THAT I CAN'T <insert thing that's rightfully unique to another splat>'

Sure, I've known good Mage players. But so many are just outright dicks that I just don't like it multi-sphere. Tabletop, yeah. Mage-only MU*? Sure. But on multi-sphere... sorry, annoying assholes have ruined it for me.