Mostly Mage, Partially Descent Mux

[Wizz]

@surreality said in The Descent MUX:

@Wizz said in The Descent MUX:

Sure, with the right Arcana they can have access to a much broader view of the CoD cosmology, but it's like a Neanderthal with access to the Hubble Telescope. The Hubris of that caveman thinking he fully understands what he sees should break him.

The problem is, this never happens on a MUX from what I've seen.

That's still just a problem with the community, it's not written in stone at all.

@Misadventure said in The Descent MUX:

EG a Sin-Eater should have some relationship, some innate thing, some capacity relating to death that no mage can touch, or even understand via magic.

They totally do. They died. A Moros Mage might have had a near-death experience that Awakens them, and has the potential to control ghosts that Sin-Eaters don't, but that doesn't automatically mean they understand ghosts better, or will ever have anything approaching the intimacy of the relationship between a Sin-Eater and their Geist. I think suggesting otherwise is spitting in the face of the theme of each game.

The new core book literally comes right out and says this about Mages and Werewolves; a Mage can wield great power in the Shadow, but they will only ever be an intruder. They aren't of the Shadow like Werewolves are.

Hell, 2.0 hasn't revisited Imperial Mysteries yet, but I strongly doubt they will ever stray too far from the idea than even the Archmasters can only ever be locked in stalemate with the Deathlords, Celestines, Old Gods, True Fae, etc.

Everyone's pants-on-head opposite day experience with this, ie

@Auspice said in The Descent MUX:

My primary experience with Mages on multi-sphere games are either:
'Let me come in and rule the plot and look how amazing I am.' / (if Staff) 'I am going to flood this +request with so many different ways that I am trying to bend/break the rules and hoping you don't notice so I can solve this plot thing in one fell swoop LIKE A GOD'
'IT'S NOT FAIR THAT I CAN'T <insert thing that's rightfully unique to another splat>'

completely boils down to complacent staff letting obnoxious players get away with it, in my opinion. I don't see why that has to always forever be the default assumption, the end.

[Taika]

@surreality - Upside: TDM is very small right now, so enforcing things like paradox and Hubris and the like is pretty easy. I pretty much know everything everyone is working on and what they want to do as a general direction.

So as long as the population doesn't explode, smacking pee-pees is totally on the agenda. For all splats, really, that bite off more than they can chew.

[Misadventure]

@Wizz
What some writer says about their game anyplace other than in the game text isn't going to help most folks feel differently about mage. I mostly agree with what you're saying, but player psychology is the issue. As an example, while Sin-eaters certainly seem like they should know more about Death, it has no way to be displayed, and the book actually does well saying that it remains even a wonderful mystery to them.Werewolves certainly known more about being part spirit and the players are enabled by the lore to be aware of the tribes and the powers they have, and even to have heard many many tales of actually possible events about how to be successful with spirits, yet the players still feel the Mage with Spirit outclasses them.

It takes something concrete to help players out. Maybe Sin-Eaters can help the dead along way way more effectively than any mage. Maybe trying to interfere with the Death related aspects of a Sin-Eater is at a hard penalty that starts off tough, and gets downright impossible the higher their Synergy (like -5 or -Synergy, whichever is higher, and attach some auto Paradox or whatever to it). That sort of things goes a long way to helping players feel like it is intended that as agents and participants in something that is innately beyond human gives them an edge in that area.

To me, player attitudes and confidence is the issue that was described, not just lack of understanding of the product, and thats the issue I think could be easier to fix.

[Arkandel]

@Auspice said in The Descent MUX:

Well, the other big issue of Mage on MU*s and why they're able to be so 'overpowered'... I have yet to see a multi-sphere place that even takes Paradox into consideration. Or enforces it if they claim to.

So their biggest drawback, on many games, just doesn't even exist.

On MU* it's almost unheard of for Vampires to have to deal with daylight at all. It doesn't even impede their roleplay as any scenes with them are automatically assumed to take place after dusk.

Mages and Paradox (which I'd argue isn't remotely as big a disadvantage than taking lethal/aggravated damage for literally half the hours of your existence if something goes wrong, and being mostly unable to function during them) aren't the only ones not having to deal with such a major issue.

[surreality]

@Arkandel said in The Descent MUX:

On MU* it's almost unheard of for Vampires to have to deal with daylight at all. It doesn't even impede their roleplay as any scenes with them are automatically assumed to take place after dusk.

To be fair, that's more a factor of player scheduling than anything else, and the time distortion that always hits with posing. There's nothing stopping anyone from holding, say, a meeting they don't want swarmed in vampires at high noon in a sunny park, saying so, and holding firm to that, which means the players can absolutely self-enforce this weakness and use it to advantage -- even if that meeting has to be scheduled in RL time at a time in-game that would allow for vamp presence. There are plenty of +events, for instance, that run around 9pm EST, but are ICly taking place during the day to represent traditional business hours, since that's just the hours most players are on and available for them.

[Ganymede]

@Arkandel said in The Descent MUX:

On MU* it's almost unheard of for Vampires to have to deal with daylight at all. It doesn't even impede their roleplay as any scenes with them are automatically assumed to take place after dusk.

It's even less of a concern in 2E, as Vampires are not as debilitated by the sunlight as they once were. Heck, one of the tricks my last Vampire could do was stay out in the sun for about an hour, and only come back with some mild burns.

But the Vampires have to deal with: (1) the need to feed; (2) the power of Vitae; and (3) other vampires trying to turn them into pawns.

[Arkandel]

@surreality said in The Descent MUX:

To be fair, that's more a factor of player scheduling than anything else, and the time distortion that always hits with posing

@Ganymede said in The Descent MUX:

But the Vampires have to deal with: (1) the need to feed; (2) the power of Vitae; and (3) other vampires trying to turn them into pawns.

Absolutely, to both of you - it is largely a factor of players playing the game a certain way just like vampires who have to deal with certain realities of their own existences are also affected by similar conventions; in the end such things are either ignored or used purely as roleplaying hooks, not unwanted impediments. I'm not even saying that's a bad thing, gameplay trumps everything else.

I think the problem with the Mage mindset @Auspice was referring to earlier though isn't that their players are jerks; it's the same players after all who populate every other sphere. The problem from where I'm standing is that having such a large toolset at their disposal - the power level may be disputed but I think we'll all agree they are by very far the more adaptable splat with a lot of flexibility in what their abilities can do - makes them look at plots as problems to be solved. Not experienced, not played, solved.

As a Storyteller that doesn't bother me on its own since I build plots and stories as sandboxes for people to mess around with and see what happens; that's part of the fun of it for me, having to cope with the unexpected. What does bug me is that when one person takes over the rest of the players in the plots tend to get bored or just... don't have anything to do, thus I can't engage them. They become plus-ones (or even plus-fours in some cases), which is a major issue.

The fact isn't merely contained to Mages versus non-Mages, by the way; it's quite common for a player knowledgeable in the system to just Do All The Things in a PrP if other players don't know or don't want to solve every issue by some combination of Arcana and dice. It can deflate tension and generate apathy very quickly - I've seen it happen.

[surreality]

I'm more noting that there's not really a player-level 'check' that can be put on mages in that same way; people can force sunlight to be an issue by stating something as simple as, 'this will take place outdoors for an extended time at noon'.

Is there something similar to that for mage I'm just missing?

[Wizz]

"This scene takes place in a crowded shopping mall/park/beach/any large public space"?
A lot of people seem to shrug off Paradox as a paper tiger, but if you're in a place where every "obviously magic" spell cast will incur a Paradox roll with the rote quality with a pool that is cumulative, it seems like it would at least take some of the air out of their balloons.

[Glitch]

@surreality So when there's an example of a system level drawback that is mostly ignored that isn't Mage, it's invalidated because there are "player-level" checks on it that never really materialize? Why should Mage even have "something similar" at all?

@Auspice Paradox is hardly the razor-edged system mechanic that keeps all that magical "nonsense" in check. Bemoaning a lack of rigorous enforcement of paradox seems like grasping at straws to me.

[surreality]

@Glitch It's not an example that would require staff-level enforcement to be relevant, and that is a distinction considerable enough that does, in our gaming environment, make a significant difference.

At a table, there is always a storyteller present to enforce those drawbacks as the world's response to a character's actions, as it is a response of the world to the character.

The vampire example is actually the reverse: the character is obligated to respond to a static condition of the world that players can choose to enforce without storyteller oversight: by setting a scene at a time and place in which those conditions would be present.

At a table, neither of these things is any greater concern than the other and there's substantially more parity due to the persistent presence of the storyteller -- and these are the conditions under which the game is designed to be played. These are not the conditions under which we play them in this hobby, and the experience of the game is directly impacted by this difference. It's far from the only thing that changes the play experience dramatically based on the venue chosen.

Why should Mage even have "something similar" at all?

...because no other sphere gets to ignore their drawbacks so freely in this environment, and that creates a notable disparity and an even more notable advantage that, were the game played as designed and intended, would not exist.

Edit: As a clearer example of the difference, re: Vampire? Imagine a tabletop game on a real-world weekend afternoon. Do you tell the players they aren't allowed to play their vampires until the real sun goes down? No? So why would it be so strange to do the same on a MUX? If a game at a table is being played at night, and a scene is set during the day, do you suddenly let the vampire players join that scene without penalties? No? ...I think the difference becomes a little clearer.

[Coin]

I don't know man. I can't think of a "player-level" werewolf drawback that can't be side-stepped pretty easily.

In the end, it's all "player-level" unless staff is involved. I don't think having player-level checks actually makes any difference at all, practically speaking.

[surreality]

@Coin Other players can't just opt to ignore lunacy.

[Ganymede]

@surreality said in The Descent MUX:

Other players can't just opt to ignore lunacy.

That's why you kill all the witnesses.

[surreality]

@Ganymede said in The Descent MUX:

@surreality said in The Descent MUX:

Other players can't just opt to ignore lunacy.

That's why you kill all the witnesses.

While an answer, still player level, and... not likely the best option.

[Coin]

@surreality said in The Descent MUX:

@Coin Other players can't just opt to ignore lunacy.

Well, Mages can't opt out of disbelief and paradox, either. And I would argue that Lunacy is a drawback for the people suffering it, not the werewolf inflicting it, at least on the level we're talking about.

If a Mage "can just ignore a crowd of people and do magic with no penalties" (which would be the logical extension of it not counting as a player-level drawback), then a werewolf can "not cause Lunacy because Gary Stu Mortal is just that special".

As it is, you can just as easily put on the brakes on any overt magic by setting the scene in a crowded coffee place, a concert, the middle of the street on an active day... much the same way you can decide a scene is set during the day time.

[Ganymede]

@surreality said in The Descent MUX:

While an answer, still player level, and... not likely the best option.

Says you.

I disagree with your point, though. While I concur that Mages require staff intervention to keep their powers in check, the same can be said about Werewolves (Spirits) or Vampires (Humanity in the daytime).

I get what you're saying? But it's a fault of perception, I think.

I still wouldn't bring the games together in a multi-sphere game because the focuses are so different now.

[surreality]

@Coin said in The Descent MUX:

As it is, you can just as easily put on the brakes on any overt magic by setting the scene in a crowded coffee place, a concert, the middle of the street on an active day... much the same way you can decide a scene is set during the day time.

^ That would be an equivalent drawback, which is precisely what I was asking about. (And was told doesn't need to exist.)

[Misadventure]

For whatever reason, the limits on mages as far as paradox and witnesses go seems to lack fictional punch. I don't see much to do with it as a player. I can make up stuff, and will, but it still seems closer to a criminal cleaning up evidence than something with deep personal meaning.

[Thenomain]

@surreality said in The Descent MUX:

@Coin said in The Descent MUX:

As it is, you can just as easily put on the brakes on any overt magic by setting the scene in a crowded coffee place, a concert, the middle of the street on an active day... much the same way you can decide a scene is set during the day time.

^ That would be an equivalent drawback, which is precisely what I was asking about. (And was told doesn't need to exist.)

<deadpan> Oh no, I will have to roll 2-3 dice to see if I suffer from some Paradox someone help me. </deadpan>

The book is great on explaining the rules, but not helping put together these mechanics into a living world. I'm sure someone will (and should) explain why the above might be a big deal, but like the issue of Willpower and Vitae, how we manage these things online is what makes it a big deal or not.

In summary: All rule focuses come down to the social decision of The Table, but our Table is quite large and expands back in time.