Mostly Mage, Partially Descent Mux
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@surreality: I must sadly concur with @Coin in that as long as players choose to not involve something then that will just not get involved. Yes, staff or Storytellers can enforce it in their own scenes that still doesn't account for 99% of the actual roleplay taking place on the grid, which complicates things even further when things do get enforced because it seems arbitrary, different than what everyone is used to and perhaps even misleading. Why is this a problem now when people have been doing the same thing for weeks (insert 'when staff alts were present' for additional effect) but it wasn't then?
Likewise Paradox is as paper a tiger as Lunacy is because it's not actually used. In a certain sense it doesn't matter why, only that it's how it is, and in that same sense policing it would be the wrong thing to do - making it desirable would be the proper way to address it. And yet system mechanics are very democratic in the way players get to choose the ones that are enjoyable to use; not useful, not advantageous, but fun. So for instance very few people would pick to make their scene inaccessible for Vampire characters by making it be daylight, or forcing them to not participate in the scene if they need to hunt first (sorry man, it'd take you too long, we'll go along without you) because they don't want to be dicks about it and that's all there is to it.
Mechanics are doomed to be underutilised if they aren't easy and entertaining to use. They need to be both.
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Is this thread mixing 1e and 2e again? Should this whole thing be moved to something other than the thread for the Descent Mux?
Making drawbacks desirable works a bit better in 2e where you get beats for resolving conditions which can in part be brought on by these drawbacks. Or I should say there is what to me is a bit of fun to the whole thing. That's one thing and its small but additionally Mage's have disbelief, paradox, and hubris to contend with. On top of that as @Ganymede has brought up you have the Seers, and you have the Guardians hunting you down if you act a fool. So really there are TONS of things going on in mage that if ignored I'd say make for shitty players. Or maybe a lucky outcome after throwing fire and sunlight around to PK a whole group of vampires isn't noticed by anyone...
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@ThatOneDude said in The Descent MUX:
. That's one thing and its small but additionally Mage's have disbelief, paradox, and hubris to contend with.
Disbelief is an actual game disadvantage? So if you don't believe in magic, it doesn't work on you, or something like that?
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@Kanye-Qwest
It was a thing in 1E, but I actually don't think it exists anymore.EDIT: Just kidding, they just changed what it's called and how it works...and also buried it in an Appendix, for some reason. It's "Dissonance" now, and it can donk up your spell factors and even destroy a spell with enough successes.
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@ThatOneDude said in The Descent MUX:
So really there are TONS of things going on in mage that if ignored I'd say make for shitty players.
Given the fact no one in the tread contests the fact Paradox isn't being used by the clear majority of players then you are suggesting almost everyone is a shitty player, which I can't accept.
Or, rather, if I need to pick between a mechanic not being a great match for MU* in its current form and universal shittiness, I'll pick the former.
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@Arkandel said in The Descent MUX:
Or, rather, if I need to pick between a mechanic not being a great match for MU* in its current form and universal shittiness, I'll pick the former.
If you're deliberately dodging a mechanic that's built into the game, I'd say you're a pretty awful player. That's akin to not RPing the consequences of a Condition, or ignoring a social roll. The difference between Paradox and, let's say, daily Vitae-burning is that one mechanic can be more easily built into a MU*.
Mages should be concerned with Paradox, Seers, and pissing off the Guardians. And that's why my Mage generally eschews using any magic, and looks at folks that haphazardly resort to magic as being stupid. That's IC, yes, but OOC I would look twice at someone who ignores Paradox consequences just because others do.
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I side with Gany on this I would view a Mage player that ignores paradox the same way I would a vamp player that ignores vitae expense to waking up or a werewolf that ignored the social penalties of having Primal Urge.
Though while she used the term awful player I would take it one step father and use the term cheater.
Granted I do not see paradox as a huge leveler though it is part of the two pronged limit on Mage stuff, the second being mana availability which is also usually not a thing on mushes. -
@Ganymede said in The Descent MUX:
If you're deliberately dodging a mechanic that's built into the game, I'd say you're a pretty awful player. That's akin to not RPing the consequences of a Condition, or ignoring a social roll. The difference between Paradox and, let's say, daily Vitae-burning is that one mechanic can be more easily built into a MU*.
And it's because of how spending vitae is easier to implement that it also gets used. Remember - mechanics must be easy and entertaining.
Though while she used the term awful player I would take it one step father and use the term cheater.
That makes no sense. These days Conditions (for example) actually yield characters XP; why would their players cheat in order to penalize themselves mechanically?
Just because it's easy to point a finger - especially at the majority of players! - and place a perceived fault squarely on their shoulders maybe we should concern ourselves with the issue a little bit deeper than that?
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@Arkandel said in The Descent MUX:
@Ganymede said in The Descent MUX:
If you're deliberately dodging a mechanic that's built into the game, I'd say you're a pretty awful player. That's akin to not RPing the consequences of a Condition, or ignoring a social roll. The difference between Paradox and, let's say, daily Vitae-burning is that one mechanic can be more easily built into a MU*.
And it's because of how spending vitae is easier to implement that it also gets used. Remember - mechanics must be easy and entertaining.
Though while she used the term awful player I would take it one step father and use the term cheater.
That makes no sense. These days Conditions (for example) actually yield characters XP; why would their players cheat in order to penalize themselves mechanically?
Just because it's easy to point a finger - especially at the majority of players! - and place a perceived fault squarely on their shoulders maybe we should concern ourselves with the issue a little bit deeper than that?
This conversation is amazing... Didn't you say earlier you play a mage? In the 2e variant which I'd guess would be on the Fallen Worlds game? You don't concern yourself with any of these rules?
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MOD VOICE
This Mage discussion has been split from the "The Descent MUX" advertisement thread. My apologies if anything Descent-specific has been caught in here. I'll try to recognize it and move it back. Once I figure out how.
Do note I moved this to the "Mildly Constructive" board. I like conversations like these so, yeah, if you all could keep it that way. It's looking good so far, but sometimes I don't notice what board I'm replying to, too.
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@ThatOneDude said in Mostly Mage, Partially Descent Mux:
This conversation is amazing... Didn't you say earlier you play a mage? In the 2e variant which I'd guess would be on the Fallen Worlds game? You don't concern yourself with any of these rules?
I think the conversation is pretty interesting, yes; you sound sarcastic though.
As for the rest, I am playing on Fallen World and use those mechanics (when my character actually casts something, that is, since it hasn't happened yet); however I am also part of a community whose habits I also like to observe. And just because their playstyle might differ from my own I don't make the automatic assumption they are either bad players or cheaters.
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@Arkandel said in Mostly Mage, Partially Descent Mux:
Given the fact no one in the tread contests the fact Paradox isn't being used by the clear majority of players then you are suggesting almost everyone is a shitty player, which I can't accept.
Wait, what? Paradox has been a thing in virtually every Mage sphere I've ever been a part of. Where exactly is this clear majority of players who "aren't using it"?
That Paradox isn't enough of a hindrance -- sure, okay, it sort of depends on what you think mage characters should be able to accomplish, but I could at least in theory agree with that. There's a lot of stuff you can do in Mage that doesn't require Paradox checks at all, and even things that do require Paradox checks often don't amount to much unless you do a lot of them in quick succession. The mechanics of nWoD Mage Paradox are such that it isn't really a big deal unless you go absolutely crazy, and that's a perfectly reasonable complaint to make about the game. But that it's just flat-out being ignored? Not in my experience.
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@Arkandel said in Mostly Mage, Partially Descent Mux:
don't make the automatic assumption they are either bad players or cheaters.Then what term would you use for players that ignore mechanics designed to limit their characters abilities?
Edit to add: Yeah OWoD paradox had teeth, NWoD paradox is not really a big deal unless you are in a scene where you think you will need to cast quite a bit you can just take the bashing damage and move on. Have not read 2nd edition of NWoD mage yet so no clue if they gave it teeth again or not.
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In the midst of sleep, apparently... I am fucking lost now.
So we don't need any kind of drawback that functions on a game re: mages, while other groups do have them, supposedly. I don't really agree there. Apparently, there is one. I haven't ever seen it arise, some people have, it may or may not lack teeth.
I've never seen lunacy or delusion on the games that have it ignored; I've similarly never seen players disallowed from running things in daytime to bar vampires from crashing the party, etc. -- so those I can't say I've seen being overlooked. (I've actually seen players yelled at for asking for night scenes, I have seen players yelled at for shifting in groups that involve people lunacy would effect and drive them out of scenes and I've been one of those players driven out of a scene who doesn't yell about it because it's part of the game from either direction, that of the wtf player, and that of people choosing minor templates.)
Also disagree re: "kill the witnesses" being the perfect answer, because what a lovely followup to having already driven those players out of the scene.
I think that's everything... now to make some coffee. <bleary-face>
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@surreality said in Mostly Mage, Partially Descent Mux:
Also disagree re: "kill the witnesses" being the perfect answer, because what a lovely followup to having already driven those players out of the scene.
I'm not really suggesting this is a good idea for a MU*, but it is a perfectly acceptable strategy for a pack of werewolves to avoid witnesses blabbing.
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@Arkandel said in Mostly Mage, Partially Descent Mux:
@ThatOneDude said in Mostly Mage, Partially Descent Mux:
This conversation is amazing... Didn't you say earlier you play a mage? In the 2e variant which I'd guess would be on the Fallen Worlds game? You don't concern yourself with any of these rules?
I think the conversation is pretty interesting, yes; you sound sarcastic though.
As for the rest, I am playing on Fallen World and use those mechanics (when my character actually casts something, that is, since it hasn't happened yet); however I am also part of a community whose habits I also like to observe. And just because their playstyle might differ from my own I don't make the automatic assumption they are either bad players or cheaters.
I need to add an anti-sarcasm sticker... Or, this line contains no sarcasm disclaimer.
Look man, if you think its ok to not follow the rules who am I to judge? Its just funny that it seems a small group of people believe that none of the rules seem to matter or should be used or... Something similar if I understand your stance from what you've posted here. Good times but it seems a lot of other people seem to think this is a horrible thing (like myself <no sarcasm>)
Perhaps this means these "stories" of mages acting so horrible are due to the same group of people?
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To preface my comments, like @Autumn, I've always played under paradox rules and didn't really know anyone that did not. That out of the way:
@ThatGuyThere I agree that the skirting of mechanics set in place to limit character abilities is technically cheating. In a private scene where there's no PvP involved, no real outside consequence and everyone is on board with it? I see less of a problem with it since it's not done to screw anyone or make illicit gains.
@surreality I'm definitely not arguing that mages shouldn't have their mechanical drawbacks. I'm saying they shouldn't get additional ones just because you (the generic you) don't like what they can do with their abilities.
I'm pretty easy about bending rule stuff for fun and if someone wanted to do a scene that involved something like assuming a success on a just-for-fun spell roll (without actually rolling) I wouldn't care. Same way I wouldn't care if a vampire didn't want to burn a point of vitae for blush of life or a werewolf wants to start play in the Shadow rather than finding a locus and rolling or spending essence to cross over.
Having some PrP in some "other" city or location where everyone goes full badass for a scene or does some crazy shit just because is the best usage of an evening to me. I won't be one of the people that demand consequences when they get back to their home city, or even that they all immediately roll morality traits. It's a playstyle issue at this point and I've always been less simulationist/rules-heavy in this regard.
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@ThatGuyThere said in Mostly Mage, Partially Descent Mux:
@Arkandel said in Mostly Mage, Partially Descent Mux:
Then what term would you use for players that ignore mechanics designed to limit their characters abilities?Uninformed if they aren't comfortable enough with the (pretty hefty) Mage rules? Uncaring because they are telling a different story with a different theme and focus at the time? I can think of many terms - and I've seem players for whom the idea of cheating is pretty absurd because they barely even spend their own XP or seek any advancement for their characters, some of whom have taken gleeful pleasure in seeing those characters broken down completely.
But it's not just Mage and Paradox, as pointed earlier. Again, I've not seen Lunacy be a factor in non-PrP/First Change related RP other than quite rarely. Or daylight, I can't remember a vampire being turned away from a public let alone private scene in ages, or outside PrPs having the approaching dawn be a factor at all; even at the beginning of PrPs it was pretty typical on TR (the last time I played a Vampire or ran plot for them) for characters to restore their blood pools to full. All those are character-limiting resources, aren't they?
I naturally understand this is empirical. Maybe your guys' observations have been different based on the groups you're hanging out with, and that's fine. But from my experience has still been that this kind of thing is rather typical and not the exception.
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@Arkandel said in Mostly Mage, Partially Descent Mux:
Again, I've not seen Lunacy be a factor in non-PrP/First Change related RP other than quite rarely.
I haven't seen it as a factor either, but mostly because the players I've run PrPs for didn't resort to Beast Mode unless they were prepared to kill every last motherfucker in the room.
Or daylight, I can't remember a vampire being turned away from a public let alone private scene in ages, or outside PrPs having the approaching dawn be a factor at all; even at the beginning of PrPs it was pretty typical on TR (the last time I played a Vampire or ran plot for them) for characters to restore their blood pools to full.
Regarding the first, this is probably because most RP on games is by invite rather than random scene. If there's a vampire around, it's because the people in the group want the vampire around. On TR, however, I excluded a vampire from some bar RP because the setting was in the early afternoon; his player was gracious and understood that he wouldn't be there for that.
On the second, this is a system/game flaw. I've long-opposed the idea of self-help pool rebuilding. This was one of the selling features at RfK for me. But I know I've been shouted down regarding such restrictions in the past.
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@Ganymede Sometimes I regret not playing on RfK, it sounds like a cool system.
Yes, if your system is caked into the overall game so that people are enticed to use all of its aspects then they will.