Fires of Hope: A Star Wars Story
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I support "activity" and "contributing player" being defined, if it's to be used for rewards. Seen way too many problematic game destroying people as well as just selfish ones go on about how much they do for a game as a reason why they should get a coveted spot.
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Does this game have the super detailed code system that every other SAGA seems to have?
IE all the info files on feats and what not, and the +map system?
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@Tempest said in Fires of Hope: A Star Wars Story:
Does this game have the super detailed code system that every other SAGA seems to have?
IE all the info files on feats and what not, and the +map system?
I dunno about map system, but! It has the super detailed +sinfo files. Dahan's on board for codeage.
@mietze Personally? I'd make 'logs on wiki' as a big part of it, if I were designing it. Like can we look at the wiki and see that you're getting out there and contributing among a variety of people? Ok!
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Nngh. Too general for me. I know a lot of shitty players that devoutly log and post stuff.
I guess it also depends on what the expectation is. I did not get the impression that force users had to be plot mavens/hubs or needing to encourage activity on a game. Not sure if one wants to elevate force users to that kind of faction head-ish sort of fashion. I thought they were just PCs.
handing out special abilities/spots to people of a certain "type" tends to artificially elevate those spots if your intent is not to creat tiers of importance.
I still think it's better for staff to just own this. And if it is going to be (in poor judgement IMO) turned into an earned/merit system character type it's better to very explicitly outline what the expectations are. "Contributing to the game" isn't. "No ooc complaints about behavior/runs x number of open scenes for people/logs x amount of activity per <time unit>/etc." are easy to understand and specific criteria.
I'd advise against doing any such thing if this type of character isn't meant to be a higher tier.
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The discussion right now that Hssiss is considering is for Staff to craft Force Users who can be used for story arcs.
And then to open up being force sensitive for any new CGs (where they could then gain more abilities over time through story/XP).
Saying the quiet parts out loud since 1996.
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@Tempest said in Fires of Hope: A Star Wars Story:
And then on top of that it looks like you are /completely/ neutering the FUs you do allow, mechanically speaking.
SAGA does a good job on making Force Users mechanically gimped as is too. Let's not forget that. Force people into starting at Level 1, and, believe me, you should have few Force Users when folks start seeing how easy they can be capped by a Soldier.
“It is better to live doing the things that you like. It is foolish to live within this dream of a world seeing unpleasantness and doing only things that you do not like.” -- Yamamoto Tsunetomo.
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@Ganymede said in Fires of Hope: A Star Wars Story:
@Tempest said in Fires of Hope: A Star Wars Story:
And then on top of that it looks like you are /completely/ neutering the FUs you do allow, mechanically speaking.
SAGA does a good job on making Force Users mechanically gimped as is too. Let's not forget that. Force people into starting at Level 1, and, believe me, you should have few Force Users when folks start seeing how easy they can be capped by a Soldier.
As a note (as it's not in the original post): Everyone starts at level 4.
Saying the quiet parts out loud since 1996.
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Yeah, I'll still take a soldier with a nice blaster rifle over a Jedi.
“It is better to live doing the things that you like. It is foolish to live within this dream of a world seeing unpleasantness and doing only things that you do not like.” -- Yamamoto Tsunetomo.
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@Ganymede said in Fires of Hope: A Star Wars Story:
Yeah, I'll still take a soldier with a nice blaster rifle over a Jedi.
Yes. Especially at those levels. Autofire and grenades. No SF:UtF? Dead Jedi.
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This is the problem with Saga. If everyone starts at 4 and you have force users with SF: UtF, force users are OP. But if you don't allow SF:UtF, they're easy targets. And the higher levels you go, the worse UtF will scale. I was so excited about a different SW game, too. SO frustrating.
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@Auspice said in Fires of Hope: A Star Wars Story:
The discussion right now that Hssiss is considering is for Staff to craft Force Users who can be used for story arcs.
And then to open up being force sensitive for any new CGs (where they could then gain more abilities over time through story/XP).
This is a lot better than a popularity contest determining who gets the Shiny on a game. It strikes me that that policy was designed to decrease drama but...I do not think it will do that, to put it mildly (again, stuff of my nightmares, do not want).
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@Warma-Sheen said in Fires of Hope: A Star Wars Story:
This is the problem with Saga. If everyone starts at 4 and you have force users with SF: UtF, force users are OP. But if you don't allow SF:UtF, they're easy targets. And the higher levels you go, the worse UtF will scale.
So, how exactly are Force Users OP'd in SAGA? I want to understand a contrary perspective.
“It is better to live doing the things that you like. It is foolish to live within this dream of a world seeing unpleasantness and doing only things that you do not like.” -- Yamamoto Tsunetomo.
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A couple of comments. 100% agree with the remarks above about Jedi being fairly weak in SAGA. Dark Side FUs can be a little absurd mechanically (as I said before, Dark Rage & Force Choke, and those are easily HRd). AoE/Autofire can eff Jedi up too. Also a very big, stacking penalty to every use of deflect/block in a turn.
Now, to touch on a related subject, even if FUs were OP OP OP, would it even really matter? Is there really expected to be Player Killing PVP? That seems to be such a rare thing these days in MU land. And in any plots/whatever, the "protagonists" (be they the good or bad guys) are almost always outnumbered anyways.
I just do not fundamentally understand the point of a Star Wars game where Force Users are restricted to the point where a new player can't show up and app one if they want to.
I've played my share of plain old pilot/bounty hunters, but if that's /all there is/ outsides of plots....Why aren't you using Firefly or something for a setting.
Anyways, not like anything I'm saying is new. These are decade old complaints. Not trying to 'bash' staff or the game, either. Just talking.
On a more constructive note...The 'let people be force sensitive and then learn force stuff after CG' thing is nice in theory, but is not going to work very well on SAGA. You need to be specializing your character and planning out your next five level ups ahead of time if you want to be relevant. Making a character, and then trying to band-aid "force stuff" onto them months after the fact isn't going to work.
And really, how can you want to restrict FUs in the first place, and then actually consider a 'resolution' where-in every FU will be a one-in-a-million Luke Skywalker wannabe who goes from knowing nothing to being MISTER FORCE MAN in the span of 6 months/whatever?
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@Ganymede I personally think it's just that, 1v1 at lower levels, the average FU will beat the average goon without breaking much of a sweat, solely on account of block/deflect and Skill Focus UTF. The FU can easily be rolling 1d20 and adding their 10-15ish UTF to defend vs attacks, while the other player just has their shitty reflex defense. On average, the FU can technically have a 'defense' averaging in the 20-30 range at fairly low levels, where the non-FU counterpart is lucky to have 15 Reflex Def. (My values on low level UTF/etc might be off here, again it's been a while.)
There's a 'perception' of FUs being stronger, just because even people who don't know the system at all will probably start with block/deflect/Skill Focus UTF. And without even knowing what they're doing, they can go jump into combat. Meanwhile, everyone else has to browse 500 feats/talents to find the few that will put them on that same level, and take the time to learn stuff like autofire rules, etc.
Take that same 1v1, with two players who know the system very well, tell one player to make a combat jedi and the other player to make a character to kill that jedi, and I'm pretty sure the non-FU mops the floor via Autofire/etc.
Even without autofire, there's nonsense like a wookiee in rage, with a couple of the Feats that make rage way stronger, and maybe some of the grappling feats, etc.
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@Tempest said in Fires of Hope: A Star Wars Story:
Even without autofire, there's nonsense like a wookiee in rage, with a couple of the Feats that make rage way stronger, and maybe some of the grappling feats, etc.
You need to get off-planet? You need a pilot.
You need to get information quietly? You need a slicer.
I know that a built-properly FU can take down a similar-leveled PC one-on-one. However, that's the fault of the non-FU; you don't go fighting Jedi one-on-one, ever, and everyone knows that. But Jedi generally have the fewest skill proficiencies, so if they want to be able to do anything except wave their light-penis around, they need to rely on others. Catch them alone with a small squad, and they will go down. Force them to have to defuse a bomb, and they will go down.
So, no. I don't think FUs are over-powered. They aren't even on Rahu-level when it comes to being OPed relative to the other classes.
“It is better to live doing the things that you like. It is foolish to live within this dream of a world seeing unpleasantness and doing only things that you do not like.” -- Yamamoto Tsunetomo.
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It's MUing though.
Everybody wants to be the action hero.
Nobody cares about my hot stud Channing Tatum PBd Han Solo knockoff when Jim over there has a lightsaber.
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On SW games that had restrictions/apps/FCs etc to take care of the Force apps, it always lead to drama. If avoiding that drama is what you're intending, then find some way to not have a gatekeeping mechanic. Either allow Force users from the get go and tweak the lore in that region of space to explain why you might have a cadre of Jedi or force users or whatever there ... there are a lot of narrative choices there, OR set the game in a time/place where it becomes a moot point ... I specificially chose 100 BBY on the Chu'unthor for the setting of my Star Wars game for this reason, totally freed up Force/Jedi apps .... OR don't have them at all. Like at all except as an occassional NPC plot villain/quest giver or whatever.
Any other system I've seen used, in the end just didn't work, created confusion or frustration and certainly brought about resentment.
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@Tempest said in Fires of Hope: A Star Wars Story:
Everybody wants to be the action hero.
I'm pretty sure that Han was involved in just as much action as Luke.
Not to mention that action he got with Luke's sister.
"You got some skills with that stick, kid, but your sister likes my stick skills more."
“It is better to live doing the things that you like. It is foolish to live within this dream of a world seeing unpleasantness and doing only things that you do not like.” -- Yamamoto Tsunetomo.
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That's lewd, Gany.
Don't be lewd.
Think of the children.
But, no, really, think of the children.
The more I think about it, the more I can't help but decide that the reason people like to restrict FUs, is because they want to play a non-FU and don't want to constantly be in the shadow of Jedi Jim. Hell, Jedi Jim probably sucks. Shows up to every public scene and plot, writes 2 sentence poses, and doesn't know what punctuation is. But he's a JEDI! There's just a 'perception' or something attached to that simple fact that some people don't like.
Yes, yes, you need pilots and slicers and diplomats and all that stuff.
But more often than not, the most common "events" on a MU are random beat 'em ups where the people with cool combat powers get to shine. Combat plots with 0 ramifications afterwards are probably more common than any and ever other kind of plot /combined/.
In a movie, it's pretty easy to make Han seem awesome and obviously doing stuff.
On a MU, when there's 10 han solo knockoffs and 10 luke skywalker knockoffs....at least the Lukes are JEDI. "Oh wow, another dashing rogue of a pilot....yeah, i'll hit you up when I can't find one of the other 19 pilots" -- "Oh wow, another Jedi...PSHOW PING POW BOOM LIGHTSABORZZZZ"
...I dunno. Just my random thoughts as I consider this.
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The reason I'd only play Force Users in SW games is simple: Everything else I can play just about anywhere. Lovable rogues? Furry monsters with rage issues? Got that covered.
There's only one real way to play a goddamn Jedi/Sith with a freakin' lightsaber, though.
