Eliminating social stats
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@Ominous said in Eliminating social stats:
@Ganymede That is a valid and understandable position. What if everyone got one character that was solely their own, but the rest were available to be played by anyone?
I call these NPCs. I will pose bartenders, cops, random street people, all reacting to the events in the room. Often it's appreciated, but sometimes people find this to be invasive. (My usual response to that is: You are yelling loudly right outside a bar; what do you think is going to happen?)
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@faraday said in Eliminating social stats:
@Seraphim73 said in Eliminating social stats:
Certainly, you can type things like @faraday suggested, and I have, frequently. But there's something of an art (in my opinion) to showing the little cues like avoiding eye contact, a faint stutter or hesitation, that sort of thing, that suggest that a character is lying without blatantly saying so.
Those make better poses, admittedly. But also... then you're actually relying on the player to pick up on those subtle cues, instead of giving the player information that you think their character would realize.
This is where positive or informative metaposing comes in. Those who hate metaposing often don't realize that offering up insight to your character's brain, their intent and thoughts and foibles, is mostly a good thing.
It's when you use it to sass-talk other players that it's horrible.
“If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos -
@Thenomain said in Eliminating social stats:
This is where positive or informative metaposing comes in. Those who hate metaposing often don't realize that offering up insight to your character's brain, their intent and thoughts and foibles, is mostly a good thing.
Uh... I don't disagree, but isn't that kinda the same thing I said in my prior post that Seraphim was offering a counter-example to?
Or am I missing your point? -
@faraday said in Eliminating social stats:
@Thenomain said in Eliminating social stats:
This is where positive or informative metaposing comes in. Those who hate metaposing often don't realize that offering up insight to your character's brain, their intent and thoughts and foibles, is mostly a good thing.
Uh... I don't disagree, but isn't that kinda the same thing I said in my prior post that Seraphim was offering a counter-example to?
Or am I missing your point?My point is twofold:
a) I agree.
b) You think I read every post in a thread? What? You guys are chatty as fuck. -
@Thenomain said in Eliminating social stats:
It's when you use it to sass-talk other players that it's horrible.
Ganymede watches Thenomain flap his lips silently, amazingly restraining herself from yawning at the boredom he summons so easily from the abyss.
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@Sunny said in Eliminating social stats:
I can guarantee you that nobody here (including me) is as awesome as they think they are,
AHEM.
I may not be as awesome as I portray myself to be, but my insecurities definitely confirm I am as awesome as I think i am.
HRMPH.
Callin´me a liar.
"Excuse the hell out of you. He's a bag of dicks. I'm a carefully curated box of cocks." -- to @GirlCalledBlu upon being misrepresented.
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@Coin said in Eliminating social stats:
@Sunny said in Eliminating social stats:
I can guarantee you that nobody here (including me) is as awesome as they think they are,
AHEM.
I may not be as awesome as I portray myself to be, but my insecurities definitely confirm I am as awesome as I think i am.
HRMPH.
Callin´me a liar.
No, I was not. Now?
Coin, you are a liar.
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@Sunny said in Eliminating social stats:
@Coin said in Eliminating social stats:
@Sunny said in Eliminating social stats:
I can guarantee you that nobody here (including me) is as awesome as they think they are,
AHEM.
I may not be as awesome as I portray myself to be, but my insecurities definitely confirm I am as awesome as I think i am.
HRMPH.
Callin´me a liar.
No, I was not. Now?
Coin, you are a liar.
NO YOU'RE A LIAR YOU FARTFASE
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@deadculture said in Eliminating social stats:
@Gingerlily Having stats does not automatically make you good at using them. The way I see it, stats are a potential. You can either waste your potential or use it well.
Correct. Your stats do, in fact, represent potential.
However.
It is the number of success* from your subsequent +roll that represents, er, successful execution of said potential.
*Edit to add: /threshold of success/whatever your game's success metric is.
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@deadculture said in Eliminating social stats:
@Gingerlily said in Eliminating social stats:
@deadculture said in Eliminating social stats:
@Gingerlily Having stats does not automatically make you good at using them. The way I see it, stats are a potential. You can either waste your potential or use it well.
Of course, people playing socially able characters with sheets that don't represent it at all kind of annoy folks.
I feel like it kind of does. Having combat stats that are high makes you good at combat, you don't need a particular ooc skill to engage in that, unless a game has super strategic combat. So having social stats may not mean people are amazing at writing out super compelling things to go with their dice roles, but it should still matter. I think people are super hung up on it because their pride gets involved. If Bob is not a great poser and his manipulation/persuasion is described kind of meh, it's cool to roll with it anyway. Let Bob have his moment of triumph, it doesn't hurt you, it doesn't hurt your PC because there are plenty of times social 'combat' will go another way.
Bob can have his moment of triumph the moment he can use his character as described by his sheet for maximum effect. Otherwise, always replacing social acuity for the roll of a die means that not only are you unable to play the social character you've envisioned, you need to reconsider how you work your interactions with other people as a whole.
Last second edit to add: It also defeats the purpose of playing a social game to begin with. If you can't put in a pretty turn of phrase, what the fuck are you doing?
You've stated your case pretty firmly. You don't want to play with Bob. I think given your mindset that is the best choice for both you and for Bob.
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@Ganymede said in Eliminating social stats:
@Gingerlily said in Eliminating social stats:
I think social stats help in eliminating OOC politics and demanding that they be IC. Which in my opinion is a good thing, and also a crucial one.
I don't think social stats does anything to eliminate OOC politics. In some cases, it can make it worse.
I see what everyone's getting at: if you have social stats and force people to use them, you can keep people honest. Much like calling a bully's bluff, this is indeed something that can be done.
What I'm getting at isn't keeping people honest but keeping people fun. I find it fun to rp in situations where my character might get duped into believing something ridiculous, or frightened by another character when yelled at. It's also fun to have my character succeed at those things.
That can be done without social stats, sure. One of my very favorite games is Houses of the Blooded.. It's all about intense political and social conflict and vengeance and groups merssing with each other. The rules for social combat read similarly to improv acting exercises, with the 'yes and' mindset and technique. -That- is the real ideal, creating a world with tons of characters lying and betraying and sabotaging each other, and the players are making it happen cooperatively. It works super well when played by a group of people who know and like each other, because there is trust there that lets them dig in and enjoy. But 'an online rpg where the community trusts each other' is not a thing I have seen, unless it is run by a group of friends.
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@Gingerlily said in Eliminating social stats:
@Ganymede said in Eliminating social stats:
@Gingerlily said in Eliminating social stats:
I think social stats help in eliminating OOC politics and demanding that they be IC. Which in my opinion is a good thing, and also a crucial one.
I don't think social stats does anything to eliminate OOC politics. In some cases, it can make it worse.
I see what everyone's getting at: if you have social stats and force people to use them, you can keep people honest. Much like calling a bully's bluff, this is indeed something that can be done.
What I'm getting at isn't keeping people honest but keeping people fun. I find it fun to rp in situations where my character might get duped into believing something ridiculous, or frightened by another character when yelled at. It's also fun to have my character succeed at those things.
That can be done without social stats, sure. One of my very favorite games is Houses of the Blooded.. It's all about intense political and social conflict and vengeance and groups merssing with each other. The rules for social combat read similarly to improv acting exercises, with the 'yes and' mindset and technique. -That- is the real ideal, creating a world with tons of characters lying and betraying and sabotaging each other, and the players are making it happen cooperatively. It works super well when played by a group of people who know and like each other, because there is trust there that lets them dig in and enjoy. But 'an online rpg where the community trusts each other' is not a thing I have seen, unless it is run by a group of friends.
I'll dupe you. I'll dupe you so hard.
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For people who dislike the idea of social mechanics, how would you feel about wring out 5-10 lines on values and ways to approach your character, that is then LOCKED? It could be edited, but not on the fly. It would be loosely interpreted, but used to see if you are being consistent or not.
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@Misadventure Would this be viewable only by staff, who would check from time to time to see if you're sticking to the script, or would it be viewable by everyone? If the latter, that's a recipe for people metagaming. Though, I could see any argument for a 'reading people' or 'empathy' skill that would allow players to see parts of the list based on how high the skill is.
Ceterum autem censeo Carthaginem esse delendam
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@deadculture said in Eliminating social stats:
Bob can have his moment of triumph the moment he can use his character as described by his sheet for maximum effect. Otherwise, always replacing social acuity for the roll of a die means that not only are you unable to play the social character you've envisioned, you need to reconsider how you work your interactions with other people as a whole.
Last second edit to add: It also defeats the purpose of playing a social game to begin with. If you can't put in a pretty turn of phrase, what the fuck are you doing?Bob can have his moment of triumph the moment he can use his character as described by the sheet...Isn't that what the roll is for? I mean, I hate to beat a dead horse, but until someone can accurately and technically describe their other actions in totality, this argument literally has no merit. If Bob rolls his dice, and he succeeds at the action, he is using his character as described by the sheet. Period.
Also: It defeats the purpose of playing any game if you have to be as good as your character, or better. We play games to be people that we aren't. We play characters to be better than we are. We're not here to play ourselves. We're not here to play mediocre.
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@ShelBeast Sure, so Bob has a disagreement with his Starbucks coffee and he throws his 16 dice in Intimidate at a barista for not giving him a soy latte. Everyone else thinks Bob is an asshole, whereas Bob just wanted to use his social dice. Bob then goes to a bar, uses another 16 dice on someone to make friends, because he can't find common ground with someone otherwise.
Rolls aren't a panacea. Rolls shouldn't replace actual role playing, which is what the purpose of this entire hobby is for. The moment the outcome of any and all interactions have to be decided by a roll, then we're better off just playing Neverwinter Nights (excellent game by the way) or something.
You can play whatever you want, just don't use your rolls in such a way you're essentially replacing your story for statistical success.
- minor edit
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MUs have a /social/ aspect to them. At no point in MUing am I actually karate chopping people or performing heart surgery. I am talking to people all the fucking time, though. The social aspect of MUing also tends to determine if anybody enjoys spending their time RPing with me. That's kind of important. Your RL kung fu or medical knowledge isn't particularly relevant to me enjoying the 5 hours I spend RPing with you unless I'm some kind of pedant. Whereas people being bad at lying, persuasion, etc, while they're SUPPOSED to be some suave casanova is actually a noticeable drag on writing. If somebody wants to roll brawl dice at me and punch me, okay, I got punched. It doesn't really matter how they pose punching. And punching has no real "effect" beyond the physical damage. If you pose a god awful bit of persuasion and succeed on a roll, I now have to write a handful of poses of my character falling for garbage.
It's just the way things are, and the way things always will be. Because we are not just playing a game. MUing is not a video game. It's a collaborative writing experiment. Understanding social dynamics and how to make a pretty turn of phrase or write a convincing argument is a hell of a lot more important than how well you can describe punching somebody with the exact realistic amount of force needed to break their nose and shove bone shards up into their brain.
This whole "we don't expect people to actually be doctors! we just let them roll medicine, so we should just let people faceroll across the keyboard and roll dice for social interactions!" just seems daft. Social interactions are more of a give and take thing. A fist fight is just a 'versus' thing. A medical roll is just 'do you succeed or not'.
It's one of the more pointless recurring arguments around here.
Playing with incredibly socially inept people just /is not fun/. Even if your game lets them roll dice to make up for it, they will quickly wind up ostracized on account of not being a fun RP partner.
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What if before every scene, those entering the scene list their goal for the scene? That way right from the get-go, everyone knows what the scene is about and if it is something that needs to be arbitrated, they roll from the start, then work their way to the resolution that the roll or rolls gave. Combat can be handled the same way. Instead of doing blow by blow, you roll and see who the victor is and play it out with that result in mind.
Ceterum autem censeo Carthaginem esse delendam
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@Tempest
Yeah, the elitism argument veered into weird territory for me. These are social games and writing games. That's just what they are. I think there's a difference between honoring rolls when the RP leading up to them was Not The Best (which I think you should do), but I'm not going to actively seek out RP with people I find consistently not fun to play with.That said, I'm fine with social stats on games where they're appropriate. I like the idea that different kinds of plots can showcase different kinds of characters. It gets more meh for me when you get into PvP, but I generally don't play PvP games so my thoughts on them are kind of moot.
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@deadculture Rolls don't replace the actual role playing; however, as I keep pointing out, rolls do, in fact, reflect the efficacy of the role you are playing.
@Tempest At some point, I will grow tired of the cyclical argument, be the pedant you all know I am, and will make a point of posing shitty techniques for things and somehow succeeding in an actual game. Limp-wristed backhand attack! Holing a gun upside down and pulling the trigger with the ring finger! Performing neurosurgery with a plastic spork and a Harlequin-style rubber mallet. Starbucks Barista who will literally piss in your cup (unseen), get a GREAT craft roll, and lie perfectly about how the secret ingredient is soy milk, because fuck social rolls, amIright?
I also shouldn't have to remind folks that being a fun RP partner and arbitrating social stuff with dice are not mutually exclusive. If you don't want to have this sort of thing affect you, there are games for that. Exalted with perfect mental defenses is a great example. But it also has a robust social combat system, so if you still worry about your social-fu, get your defenses in place instead of being able to suplex the moon into that city-sized zombie mech.
@Ominous That's how the Vampire Social Combat from the Danse Macabre is supposed to work on Fallcoast. Dunno how much it sees in practice, but it is a social system that literally functions like the physical combat, with Nerve (Social 'health), Guile (Social 'defense), and Dominance (Social 'initiative'), and it's very own merits to make you better at things and new discipline interactions and everything.
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@Ominous said in Eliminating social stats:
What if before every scene, those entering the scene list their goal for the scene?
At almost no time do I have a goal for a scene when I'm entering it. Now and then my character does but even that doesn't happen very often. In fact for a majority of my scenes I don't even know who will be in it IC and/or OOC, let alone what I want from them! I go to Elysium looking for RP, anything else is a bonus.
It would also be such a drag if we had to disclose everything ahead of time before we even start a pose, aside from the fact we'd be spoiling it for the other person. And it wouldn't even work because someone who doesn't want to ever lose will just create catch-all conditions (/macro "I go to meet Jane in order to get the best possible deal from her while giving up as little as I can from my end") so it won't make a difference.
