Wheel of Time MU(SH|X)

[yyrqun]

@seraphim73 said in Wheel of Time MU(SH|X):

I mean, what happens after the Last Battle (besides clean-up)?

The freedom of the timeline would be the appeal to me, imo! Unlike the Trolloc Wars, where nobody would be Andoran, Cairhienin, etc., all the cultures would be there, people would have lived through the defeat of the Dark One, and new heroes would be stepping up to face new threats. Aviendha's vision into the future might also give a lot to work with.

@arkandel said in Wheel of Time MU(SH|X):

The one thing I do like about going off the books is that... let's face it, that shit involves some heavy duty reading! Demanding that your players are knowledgeable about them can be a hefty requirement for newcomers.

Canon divergent settings can definitely be fun, but with a game in the main verse, someone who's read the series will know everything that's going on, but newcomers will have to research everything in the theme files, etc. In an alternate setting, newcomers will have to do that too, on top of all players having to read about points of divergence and the alternate history that's happened since, etc.

[WildBaboons]

One of the consistent things here in this entire thread is that I don't think anyone (and sorry if I've forgotten where someone has) has said that they would want a game that ran in parallel with the books to fit to cannon and had all the various NPC FCs running around. In some ways this would be the easiest way, but in other ways the most difficult given the lack of ability for players to actually make a difference.

[Three-Eyed Crow]

@wildbaboons
A parallel book game is probably the single idea out of all those being bandied around that I'd have zero interest in playing.

[hamstersonPcP]

Especially a parallel book game with NPC FCs. At least if players have the cast, there's agency and unpredictability...

I played on a SW game that mostly mimed Canon (now Legends) events and had staff run FCs... Who were buffed any time a PC got close. It was so very, very rote and frustrating, and any time they popped up in plot the main actor became a staff NPC, not any player/s. Bad form imo.

[Wolfs]

You guys can have your male channelers and all that. I just want a wolfkin. I also loved the World of Dreams and the possibilities in it.

Remembering all the different magical things people could do kept me from pursuing an Aes Sedai on Cuendillar. Going away from that with another type of character was easier for me to get into. Plus, many of them will need Warders as well.

But, I think there does need to be a quota cap on how many PCs there can be of a certain type. Maybe a soft quota, one staff has to monitor early on to see if they think there are too many people trying to play this or that so things can be more balanced, but if you have a world full of male channelers running around, I think it starts to lose its uniqueness.

Maybe what we're looking at seeing in-game is the main focal point of things, with the commoners left as NPCs or in the background in general, but having no limits runs the risk of diluting the pool and making the abnormal normal instead.

I definitely agree on limiting Darkfriends/Black Ajah, and any that exist should probably be in contact with staff fairly frequently in order to help keep them coordinated. It did get a bit out of control on Cuendillar.

[Tempest]

I'd just remove Black Ajah on account of the fact that staff will probably pick the wrong people to play it and it'll be a disaster, and because almost everybody will want to be one, so it'll spawn a lot of drama. If not 'limited', you'd just wind up with 80% of your Aes Sedai being black ajah.

MUers do not do discreet or secretive very well. Some people think they can, and they really can't. MUers also tend to have a rabid attitude about "outing" other people. Then there's the crazy drama blowups of people "finding out secrets" and blah blah blah.

I love Black Ajah, but if you're actually interested in making a "good" game and having people actually interact with each other, I don't see how it'd ever work.

And if, in some crazy world, the select few who get chosen to do Black Ajah do it well...they're not adding anything to the game at large. It's a hidden, secret club of people who were deemed "cool enough".

...Good luck with that.

[Lithium]

I always wanted a third age game from a mirror world with no dragon, no big names, there may be people in those same positions but they aren't FC's. Like for example: The Dragon is being Reborn, but nobody knows who it is yet. The Forsaken are known to be active (NPC's for plots), the big heroes are being reborn etc but nobody knows who they are, PC Male Channelers could try to become the Dragon, let the cards fall where they may with zero big FC's to push stuff.

So you wouldn't even need to mention anything about the book chars at all. They just never existed in this turn of the wheel.

[Seraphim73]

@arkandel said in Wheel of Time MU(SH|X):

Since I've no idea how this went over on Cuendillar, what was well done about it? Did 'enough' people choose to play male channelers anyway? Would you call it a successful experiment?

There were 2-4 male channelers (that I knew of) at any given time. Some were well-done, others were not. Most were ICly secret except for a few confidants, most were NOT OOCly secret. I thought in general it was a good way to handle male channelers in a non-Asha'man timeline.

@WildBaboons I would totally dig on a "The Folks Who Make It So The Big Names Can Win" game. But I know that very, very, very few others would, so I've been making alternative suggestions.

As far as Black Ajah goes... it would be really nice if recruitment into it could happen ICly, but I know that would draw all sorts of claims of (and likely actual examples of too) favoritism and clique-ism. But that's the one way to "make sure" it doesn't get out of hand. But yeah... Black Ajah a) takes out the restraint of the Three Oaths, upsetting the balance of the game again, and b) is usually played terribly (yes, I know, that's judge-y of me).

[Arkandel]

@wolfs said in Wheel of Time MU(SH|X):

You guys can have your male channelers and all that. I just want a wolfkin.

Username checks out!

@tempest said in Wheel of Time MU(SH|X):

I'd just remove Black Ajah on account of the fact that staff will probably pick the wrong people to play it and it'll be a disaster, and because almost everybody will want to be one

In the game I was playing it wasn't that popular. I mean... there were some, but definitely a minority.

Also I'd definitely not want staff hand-picking anyone other than book characters, if there were any, and I'd advise against that.

@seraphim73 said in Wheel of Time MU(SH|X):

As far as Black Ajah goes... it would be really nice if recruitment into it could happen ICly, but I know that would draw all sorts of claims of (and likely actual examples of too) favoritism and clique-ism.

Oh for sure. The risk that over time some people would stop playing and the remaining oldbies would get to hand pick all other generations of Black Ajah from then on is scary. And not in a darkfriend way!

[krmbm]

@lithium said in Wheel of Time MU(SH|X):

I always wanted a third age game from a mirror world with no dragon, no big names, there may be people in those same positions but they aren't FC's...
So you wouldn't even need to mention anything about the book chars at all. They just never existed in this turn of the wheel.

Pretty much this is what I'd like to see. Scale back all the power levels (Moiraine and Liandrin are the the tippy-top, not Nynaeve), thereby allowing Warders to be pretty kick-ass, and go from there.

I just got to the battle inside the stone of Tear, and the difference between that battle - FIREBALLS AND SOME INSANE BLACK HOLE AND MYRDRAAL DISINTEGRATING - and the initial peril of the first books - when Moiraine basically had to use her staff as a focus to scare the crap out of some Whitecloaks and a Fade was actually something to run from - is stark.

From the perspective of actually playing in the world, the former seems much more sustainable.

[Brunocerous]

Hi! I've been following this game and this thread with interest, and I just wanted to throw in my two cents in terms of game balance with channelers and non-channelers.

I would propose that you consider certain types of PCs to be 'supers', and that everyone can only have one of those. An Aes Sedai would certainly be one example, but there might be others as well, including rulers. For those who do not want to play something that is an established super like the examples above, perhaps there could be a final category which is "ta'veren". You would have to decide what this means, mechanically, but perhaps they get points to spend in a given scene to get out of a scrape, or make something happen that wouldn't ordinarily take place, etc.

That way it might make sense that if you want to play the baker's kid that ends up helping to save the world, there is a valid, thematic reason for it to happen, and a reason for Aes Sedai (particularly of the Blue Ajah) to be interested in you and to pull you into rp.

[WildBaboons]

@seraphim73 said in Wheel of Time MU(SH|X):

@WildBaboons I would totally dig on a "The Folks Who Make It So The Big Names Can Win" game. But I know that very, very, very few others would, so I've been making alternative suggestions.

I actually wouldn't mind this myself, to an extent. It's what I played on for over a decade so know it can work, but does tend to make things small scale because the big stuff is handled by the big kids.

I think the crux of what I am trying to wrap my head around for choosing a setting is: What is the Wheel of Time? At its most iconic and 'true-to-theme' feel I think a game set around books 8-12 or so makes the most sense, but that severely limits plot options, the time to do them before the big event, and requires the big name FCs.

[Arkandel]

@wildbaboons said in Wheel of Time MU(SH|X):

I think the crux of what I am trying to wrap my head around for choosing a setting is: What is the Wheel of Time?

That's what I tried to break down a few posts up. No matter what there are some elements you 100% want in a game (you want to use the 'magic system' for example, it's too good to leave out) and after that it depends on the kind of game you want to run.

• You can absolutely get away with a WoT Lords and Ladies.

• An adventurous take is definitely possible (hunt down darkfriends, recover treasures and knowledge lost to the ages)

• You can do dark 'alternate' apocalyptic states (the Dark One already won and humanity is staging its last stand against the Blight!)

• It could be a Hogwards-like school setting focused on teaching young channelers the ins and outs of the world and channeling while they try to save the world from the Forsaken conspiracies.

• You could even run a high-magic more light hearted MU* in the Age of Legends where all kinds of whacky things are possible, even crossovers, time travel, adventures in Dreams... whatever the hell you want.

So, what kind of MUSH are you (generic you) trying to make? At some point we'd need specifics before we delve any deeper into it.

[WildBaboons]

@krmbm said in Wheel of Time MU(SH|X):

Pretty much this is what I'd like to see. Scale back all the power levels (Moiraine and Liandrin are the the tippy-top, not Nynaeve), thereby allowing Warders to be pretty kick-ass, and go from there.

This is probably something that will happen no matter what I settle on. Unless taken by surprise channellers would still be able to wreck anyone that can't channel one-to-one, or even three-to-one. But not 500-to-one.

@lithium said in Wheel of Time MU(SH|X):

I always wanted a third age game from a mirror world with no dragon, no big names, there may be people in those same positions but they aren't FC's...
So you wouldn't even need to mention anything about the book chars at all. They just never existed in this turn of the wheel.

I am considering this too, but it has its own hurdles. How do you make some of the key thematic events happen without a Dragon Reborn? The founding of the Asha'man? The Aiel joining the fight as allies (mostly)? The cleansing? It's certainly doable but would need a very good ST team in place to help coax it all along and has the problem of running a game on rails if people want to be able to have those sorts of characters introduced to the game.

I would not want to have any character be ta'veren or be the Dragon Reborn otherwise you're just doing a find and replace on the FCs from the books and what's the point, plus the usual problems having a small group of PCs of grossly imbalanced importance on a game.

[WildBaboons]

@arkandel said in Wheel of Time MU(SH|X):

@wildbaboons said in Wheel of Time MU(SH|X):

I think the crux of what I am trying to wrap my head around for choosing a setting is: What is the Wheel of Time?

That's what I tried to break down a few posts up. No matter what there are some elements you 100% want in a game (you want to use the 'magic system' for example, it's too good to leave out) and after that it depends on the kind of game you want to run.

• You can absolutely get away with a WoT Lords and Ladies.

• An adventurous take is definitely possible (hunt down darkfriends, recover treasures and knowledge lost to the ages)

• You can do dark 'alternate' apocalyptic states (the Dark One already won and humanity is staging its last stand against the Blight!)

• It could be a Hogwards-like school setting focused on teaching young channelers the ins and outs of the world and channeling while they try to save the world from the Forsaken conspiracies.

• You could even run a high-magic more light hearted MU* in the Age of Legends where all kinds of whacky things are possible, even crossovers, time travel, adventures in Dreams... whatever the hell you want.

So, what kind of MUSH are you (generic you) trying to make? At some point we'd need specifics before we delve any deeper into it.

The first two are a given I think so matter what time frame/setting the game is set in. Those are just baked into theme and what a lot of people like about it. And the fourth sort of is too. I can't envision a WoT game that didn't have the White Tower and letting people go through that process if they want to. Some people really enjoy it as long as it's optional.

I have some other ideas too.. but since I know a couple of people that are following the thread are just reading the books I'll ask: Do you want me to use spoiler tags when discussing ideas that give away some things? I am been just assuming knowledge up to this point.

[Arkandel]

@wildbaboons The last book in the series was published several years ago. It's unreasonable to require spoilers any more, with apologies to anyone who's yet to finish them - guys, you shouldn't be reading this thread in that case.

[yyrqun]

@wildbaboons said in Wheel of Time MU(SH|X):

I have some other ideas too.. but since I know a couple of people that are following the thread are just reading the books I'll ask: Do you want me to use spoiler tags when discussing ideas that give away some things? I am been just assuming knowledge up to this point.

I am still reading the books but I'm sort of a spoilerphile, especially when it comes to these rich worlds where I can't pick up the book without looking at a fan wiki every 5 seconds and seeing X character: deceased. And I also get that it's a bit much now that the series is done and dusted.

[Three-Eyed Crow]

I don't think you can have a discussion about which time period a game should be set in without just allowing whatever on spoilers. Like, you can't get into what channeler power levels should be without discussing how nuts and probably game-breakingly unworkable they get in the later books, which gets into development around the viability of male channelers that a lot of people would consider spoilers and...so on.

[Tempest]

MU-wise, I dunno how much Lord + Ladies a WoT game would really have. WoT was never really the "prince played by Jensen Ackles is a badass swordsman" sort of thing. The badasses are the Warders and the scant few other blademasters around. And the "ladies" never really did much...unless they happened to also be Aes Sedai (and the princes who were badass went off to be warders). Supporting a real L+L type of thing would put a heavy burden on the STs, I think.

(Yeah, yeah, there's the game of houses stuff. And there is, in theory, political intrigue and shit, but how many people are going to want to be doing that, opposed to doing channeling/blademaster/darkfriend/etc type shit?)

I know some people would probably hate it, but I feel like for the health of the game, it'd be best to start in a centralized area and require people to have a common hook. Like, for example, the game's grid is Tar Valon. Everybody is an Aes Sedai, a Warder, a novice/trainee one of those, a city guard, a merchant in town, an innkeeper, whatever. With Tar Valon, you have pretty handy excuses to do most varieties of things.

"There's rumors of an angreal somewhere, send some folks to go get it."

"People in Illian are being dumb, we need to send some Aes Sedai to council them."

"Trollocs have been sighted, send some Aes Sedai..."

Etc.

People can make nobles from Cairhien and Arad Domani and Illian if they want, but they need a reason to be at Tar Valon.

Or do like..Tar Valon and one other specific city. Maybe during an aiel/trolloc war or something to give people a reason to be there.

If you let people randomly app characters from every different country doing whatever they want, it seems like it wouldn't go anywhere.

Probably can't do only TV because then it's hard to fit in male channellers.

IDK, just some thoughts after reading Ark's post.

[Three-Eyed Crow]

@tempest
For me, the concern would be the large population who LOVES L&L games driving a WoT game toward being a standard L&L game. Which has happened in fantasy settings less suited for it before, and will happen again. I don't want to rag on that, even though it's not my bag, but it's definitely a thing staff is going to have to decide how much they want to support. There will be demand.