The Basketball Thread

[Ganymede]

@Warma-Sheen

Durant was the difference maker in this one. Without his first quarter, the Raptors would have had it. They knew how to deal with the Warriors without him.

[Arkandel]

@Ganymede said in The Basketball Thread:

@Warma-Sheen

Durant was the difference maker in this one. Without his first quarter, the Raptors would have had it. They knew how to deal with the Warriors without him.

Also the Warriors had an amazing shooting night from 3 (45%) and the Raptors an abysmal one. That, too, won't repeat itself.

[Ganymede]

@Arkandel said in The Basketball Thread:

Also the Warriors had an amazing shooting night from 3 (45%) and the Raptors an abysmal one. That, too, won't repeat itself.

I think it is telling too that the Warriors had an amazing shooting night while they were riding the emotion of having Durant on the court and him getting knocked out. After that, they were less than average, bringing their shooting night down from around 100% in the first quarter.

The Warriors barely squeaked away with a win. But for Green's last-minute half-block of Lowry, Jurassic Park would be going crazy.

[Warma Sheen]

Coming down the stretch of game 5, they won that game with lights out 3 point shooting from Thompson and Curry when they were down by 6 to go up 3. I'm reminded again of Game 1 where they didn't even try but a single 3. I bet if they knew what position they were gonna be in right now they'd have tried harder to win that game. Shame on them for that.

I think the Warriors as an organization are shocked and confused that they can't handle the Raptors. I know I am. I think they thought it was gonna be an easy win and their best effort wasn't necessary. They weren't ready mentally and then as the injuries piled up, they took a beating physically. I don't fault them for not being able to win without 2 of their best. But they should be able to win without KD. They just have to stop ignoring basic fundamental techniques that are taught in every high school gym in the country. But they are so used to playing sloppy, its almost like they can't break their own bad habits. Even in game 5, they couldn't stop turning the ball over on mental errors and silly mistakes in the last 4 minutes of an elimination finals.

I'm shocked. I'll admit to being totally wrong on this one. But it has been some intense basketball watching, which I did not think I would have this year. So that's a win. And as a GS fan, I like that I can like the Raptors as a team, even in this situation. Class acts.

[Ganymede]

@Ganymede said in The Basketball Thread:

Toronto in 6.

You will all bow to me.

[Warma Sheen]

I'm happy for the Raptors - the Warriors have won way too much to feel too bad for them - but the injuries kept the series from focusing on basketball. The KD thing just plain sucks, but we all knew he shouldn't have been playing. Looney playing with torn cartilage in his ribs was boss especially since he was ruled out of the series. Thompson wasn't someone they could win without if KD was already out. When he went down it was a wrap. You could see the Warriors knew it right away. Curry's look was so depressing. It sucks for Thompson and it sucked for what had become a good series.

Also the Raptors played an amazing series and deserved a better story than 'Yeah, you won but only because of all the Warriors injuries...'.

As a side note: It was interesting to see Thompson running through the tunnels and on the court on what turned out to be a torn ACL. I'm glad people saw that. People don't really understand how complicated of an injury it is. You basically can't feel it all - until that one moment you move the wrong way and then it feels like someone stabbed into your joint with a jagged ice pick.)

[Ganymede]

@Warma-Sheen

I think the takeaway from this is resilience. The Raptors weren’t injured as badly going in, yet they had two hard-fought series. And Leonard will set the tone for how teams handle their stars workload.

[BobGoblin]

@Ganymede Leonard sat out all last season following his spurs tantrum. "Handling stars" include year long rest?

[Arkandel]

I hate the Warriors but I must admit they fought hard even when they were terribly depleted. As for Klay, that guy is a fucking legend; he seemed pretty willing and able to take us out pretty much single-handedly if he had to. Thankfully ACL tears aren't what they used to be, and he'll hopefully come back in fully health by Christmas.

My own concern is the Raptors' future. Masai Ujiri was just offered a $10m/year contract by Washington, does he take it? Does Kawhi leave for LA where his family is? Then the rest of the roster is aging other than 2-3 pieces, but also the entire thing comes off the books next year, basically.

The only guarantee is we can keep Siakam and FVV since they'll be RFAs, but other than that this could be a title team that actually goes into full rebuild mode in less than a year, which is insane.

Also I'd be shocked if Antony Davis isn't traded (probably to the Lakers) by Monday.

[Ganymede]

@BobGoblin said in The Basketball Thread:

Leonard sat out all last season following his spurs tantrum. "Handling stars" include year long rest?

"Handling stars" means "listening to third-party doctors instead of team doctors" and "respecting that pushing your stars while they have career-threatening injuries is bad for you and business." The fact that the Raptors basically let Leonard dictate his playing time is probably what helped him perform so damn well during the championship run.

KD is a competitor, but it seemed clear to me that he came back from an injury when he shouldn't have. His Achilles injury is career-threatening now, and he may be out for a season to have it heal properly. He could use his contract's opt-in to make the Warriors pay for a year without him hitting the court, and I'd recommend he do so.

I don't think Ujiri is going to leave, even if the money is good. He could negotiate an extension with Toronto for the same money, and have the staff and players that made him successful. Leonard is a question mark, but this championship might make him sign up for a least another year, while Lowry, Ibaka, FVV, Anunoby, and Siakam are still under contract (through 2020). I think the key is whether Gasol opts-in to stay, and whether they are able to resign Green. The only roster player for the championship signed beyond 2020 is Powell.

[Arkandel]

I think the biggest change in the league is that for the first time in half a decade the Warriors look pretty vulnerable instead of them being the nearly unbeatable juggernaut you kind of just plan to outlast or throw gimmicky teams at hoping for the best.

That means we're perhaps about to go into a full-on arms race.

• LeBron's prime window is closing and the Lakers will go at it hard.
• The Rockets need to figure out what they're doing. Reload and try again or blow it up by trading CP3 for... something? Who'd give back major assets for an elite but aging guard with that huge contract and a history of injuries though?
• Portland needs to decide how many real pieces away from contention they are. Will they make big moves or hope adding Nurkic back gives them the edge?
• The Clippers have a lot of salary cap space but they are also... the Clippers. Can they land big names in free agency? This summer might be the chance to prove they're not just the also-in-LA team.
• The Sixers and Bucks are extremely salary capped locked but they can't afford to build any more - they have to hit the playoffs running next year, no more excuses. I expect Giannis to come back with a midrange shot next year. But can Simmons also evolve?

[Warma Sheen]

I don't think there's any way KD plays next year. No one expects him to and no one faults him. And no one can push him into trying to come back early without proving definitively that they have no soul.

The Raptors, remember, were only a very long game 7 bounce away from even advancing in the playoffs. Hopefully, this shows other teams that they can make runs to the finals by just playing solid team basketball without needing 3 superstars. Leonard did it once with Spurs, then again with the Raptors. The Rockets need to learn this. They should have already and that is the major fault of their organization. You know the Sixers are saying 'That could have been us'. And I wouldn't be surprised if people start counting the Warriors out. Hopefully they learn to start playing real basketball again. Sloppy play cost them games they didn't need to lose. (And I'll always and forever question their lack of 4th quarter effort to win game 1.)

[Ganymede]

@Warma-Sheen said in The Basketball Thread:

Sloppy play cost them games they didn't need to lose. (And I'll always and forever question their lack of 4th quarter effort to win game 1.)

This is very true. I don't know how stifling Toronto's defense really was, but giving up 6 TOs in a quarter is unacceptable. The Warriors are the best with the new long-ball game -- they never missed an uncontested 3, as far as I saw -- but they are going to continue to fail if they keep turning the ball over.

[Arkandel]

I think the Lakers overpaid for AD. I get it, it's so they can compete for a title right when the window is open with the Warriors' roster depleted and LeBron's age probably about to become a factor. But even then... they gave up so much for one guy who has a history of getting injured.

But anyhow, perhaps unpopular opinion: They shouldn't get a third max guy (unless they are going to go very, very deep into luxury tax territory). They should get quality pieces instead.

For example they could use a guy like Brogdon - but he won't come cheap. Excellent shooter, top-notch defender, doesn't turn the ball over or need it in his hands. Or if they can get him for a reasonable contract, and it won't be as low as this year's was, Boogie; he's played with AD before and he can take the center spot allowing AD to be a PF which he prefers, and lets him not have to bang it out with the monsters in the league. Maybe a Patrick Beverly as well; round it up. Ricky Rubio as a backup PG if he'll play that role, even though he can't shoot the ball.

If they put AD+LeBron+third All-Star in front of any roster they'll crush them, but what when they need a rest? In the West's long regular season you can't not rest guys. And one injury might get you in deep trouble - like actual nightmare territory of not making the playoffs after you just traded all those guys away.

[Ganymede]

@Arkandel

They still have Kuzma.

There are plenty of good shooters that will be available. They need to surround Davis and James with strong shooters and defenders. I concur that they don’t need another all-star.

The big problem is that the Lakers have no talent evaluators. If James has a hand in hiring Stephenson and Rondo, he clearly doesn’t either.

[Arkandel]

@Ganymede Actually the Lakers have excellent talent evaluators - Jonnie West (Jerry West's son) is the head of their Basketball Operations and that's how they found Kuzma late, grabbed Wagner and Caruso, etc. He's pretty damn good at what he does.

The issue is the guys heading the front office and making decisions are not ideal. For example look at Pelinka right now - what does he have to lose by risking a decade's worth of picks (past and future ones) for AD? If this thing with LeBron didn't work out he'd be fired anyway - so from his perspective it's a win/win. Either he's a hero or he has nothing to lose, and the Lakers can figure it out once he's gone.

Personally I think LeBron wasn't a good signing for them, as weird as that sounds. His timeline is too short. In fact Davis' is probably better - he's 26, so there's at least 7-8 seasons of prime left in him, barring injuries, which can attract free agents in the future.

IMHO a much better timeline is keeping D'Rus, capitalizing on BI/Lonzo for one more year, signing AD for free next year and then that's a fucking squad. Ingram, D'Rus, Lonzo, Kuzma, AD, maybe with Randle in the mix... a ton of depth, several guys who can give you 20 a night, a great defensive back court and a dominant center. Why rush for 1-2 years of LeBron's effective prime?

[Ganymede]

@Arkandel said in The Basketball Thread:

Why rush for 1-2 years of LeBron's effective prime?

You just answered your own question.

James had his first major injury this year, and it won't be his last. You need Davis, period. If you have confidence in your talent evaluators, then it shouldn't hurt too badly; there are many draft picks out there looking for their shot, and even more undrafted folks who could make a difference (e.g., FVV).

Having Davis means you can "load manage" your stars if you want to. We have seen how and why that works. You could argue that you can't do that in the West, but I disagree; Toronto had a better record than the Warriors (which was pretty important), and still ended up just behind Milwaukee while giving Leonard that time he wanted or needed to rest up.

Being a champ or prospective champ is important. Think about what might happen if Boogie moved to the Lakers; last time I checked, he is a free agent now. Boogie is clearly chasing a ring, and I would opine that his best shot at it is going for a mid-range contract and sticking to the Lakers. You could add Bogdanovic, Redick, or Ross on an affordable 1-year deal to get a ring, and holy shit you could run the West.

[Arkandel]

@Ganymede Oh, I agree, and if they spend the rest of their salary cap getting more pieces than another BIG NAME then it's a good idea at this point.

In other words I think getting someone like Kemba now is a mistake. You'd be getting a guy who can do 2-3 things at an elite level and ask him to only do one - catch and shoot. Why not get someone else who is very good at that one thing instead, for much cheaper? Brogdon is an excellent catch and shoot guy. 1/3rd of what you pay for Kemba.

Then Boogie could work out, Pat Beverly is another, you mentioned Bogdanovic or Ross too. That's a decent deep teem.

All of that goes out the window if you can get Kawhi, of course. If you can, you do, and that's that.

[Ganymede]

@Arkandel

If Leonard goes west, it is to the Clippers. Then again, I don’t see him liking the entire circus of media over there.

I hope he stays as the King of the North.

[Arkandel]

@Ganymede As do I, but I'm biased.

Also he'd have a much harder time getting rest and managing his load anywhere in the West. Basically the only way he goes anywhere is to be in LA since he's from there. That's it.