The Basketball Thread

[Ganymede]

@arkandel said in The Basketball Thread:

It's because "most valuable" is such an ambiguous term. They should have really called it "best" player.

Without LeBron, the Cavs are nothing. Without Harden, the Rockets are nothing. To their teams, they both are their most valuable players.

LeBron's numbers are simply better across the board than Harden. LeBron got farther into the playoffs. Sure, he didn't give the Warriors much of a challenge, but Harden had Chris Paul with him. LeBron is the better player.

So, LeBron is the better player, and the most valuable one on his team, and arguably the most valuable player to the fucking league based on his level of play.

Being tired of voting for the same dude is a stupid reason to ignore statistics, results, and what everyone fucking knows to be true.

[Deleted]

I'd argue that LeBron is not the better player. He has zero court leadership. Zero lockerroom leadership.

Just because he's better at the physical part of basketball doesn't mean he's the better player. There's a whole mental/social aspect as well.

[Arkandel]

@admiral said in The Basketball Thread:

I'd argue that LeBron is not the better player. He has zero court leadership. Zero lockerroom leadership.

You would be wrong, but it's your prerogative.

[Deleted]

Those rings LeBron is collecting are stacking up. Winning!

[Deleted]

But on a more serious note (not the trolling comment I just made), Lebron picked his team. His teammates. His GM. His coach. He ran the entire team himself... he is to blame for the failure. You don't get to say 'But his teammates were bad!' when the man literally picked who came to the team and their contracts. Lebron made his bed.

I won't argue that he isn't the most physically gifted player in NBA history. But he's not the best player. Not by a long shot.

[ThatGuyThere]

@arkandel said in The Basketball Thread:

. Same reason Pop didn't win Coach of the Year almost every year.

The true injustice this year for Coach of the Year is Brad Stevens not even getting a vote.

[ThatGuyThere]

@admiral said in The Basketball Thread:

Those rings LeBron is collecting are stacking up. Winning!

Interesting argument to use in support of Harden who has fewer rings (three being greater than zero) and has only made the finals once when he was a clear third option on the team.

[Arkandel]

@admiral said in The Basketball Thread:

I won't argue that he isn't the most physically gifted player in NBA history.

I actually think Wilt Chamberlain might have been that. But who knows, when all the footage we have of him in his prime is in grainy black&white ancient videos.

[Deleted]

@arkandel I just read an article where they compared James and GSW to Chamberlain and Bill Russell/Celtics.

Russell's comment is pretty on the nose for my point of view.

“We talked about it one time,” Russell said of the lone conversation he had with Chamberlain about the difference in their careers. “[Wilt] said that [Russell having better teammates] was not true. Simply because his teammates had to feed him and I fed my teammates.”

[Warma Sheen]

@ganymede Normally getting farther in the playoffs is a big factor in MVP, but I think this year it was different. It was what they did against the Warriors that was the tie breaker - because I think it was pretty close. If not for the fact that they both played the Warriors in the playoffs there would be a lot more speculation and what ifs.

Your point about Lebron having better numbers and Harden having Chris Paul is an argument FOR Harden. Of course Lebron had better numbers, he had far less talented help. Houston spread its numbers around but even then Harden still had great numbers.

But when it came to playing the best team in the league, Harden (& Co.) got much closer to getting the job done. Harden led especially well, putting it to the Warriors - even without CP3 when they met in the playoffs. LeBron was outstanding, but he couldn't lead his team to even a single win (thanks to JR). And if not for Houston's game 7 3-point shooting nightmare, a CP3-less Harden-led team was poised to put the Warriors down and ultimately take the championship. LeBron was never close to that this year.

MVP is an ambiguous term. But I think that can be good. It offers more variety than simply 'best player'. I do think LeBron was the best player, just as he is every year. (But that title gets kinda boring year after year.) But his value to the Cavaliers was capped. I think they exceeded their potential because of him, but they were never getting past the Warriors. The Rockets, meanwhile, had a legitimate shot of taking down the champs, but only thanks to Harden (especially shown with CP3s injury in that series), making him more valuable to Houston than LeBron was to the Cavaliers. Their play against Golden State made the case for Harden.

[ThatGuyThere]

@arkandel
The news about Paul George is exactly why I think the Spurs should take less to send Kawhi to the East if they trade him. Last off season it was all about how Paul George wanted to be a Laker, this year when he had the chance after being in a place for a year he ended up re-upping with OKC, lots can change in a year so I would take the long shot and not help a direct head to head rival build a super team.

[BobGoblin]

This is why the Celtics need to consider Kawhi heavily. Even as a one year rental they'll probably push into the finals plus they have enough assets to make a reasonable deal and have reserves.

Kawhi is an interesting personality and stevens is known as a coach that connects with players well and get them to buy in. Much like pop but younger and more relatable.

If Kawhi struggles with the pressure of San Antonio he'll crumble in la.

[Arkandel]

@bobgoblin I think the Celtics currently have everything they need to succeed. They just need time and health - or maybe eventually trading up for a Horford replacement when he gets a bit older.

[Arkandel]

LeBron is a Laker. Yay

[Deleted]

@arkandel I'm glad he's a Laker too. As a non-Laker fan. He could have gone some places far more dangerous.

[ThatGuyThere]

@arkandel said in The Basketball Thread:

LeBron is a Laker. Yay

This is a yay simply because it makes it possible for me to cheer for GS in one round of the playoffs since the Lakers are the only team in the west that I would make that call on.

[Ganymede]

@thatguythere said in The Basketball Thread:

This is a yay simply because it makes it possible for me to cheer for GS in one round of the playoffs since the Lakers are the only team in the west that I would make that call on.

This is what revenge looks like.

LeBron has made it to the championship round 8 times in a row. He's aiming to make it 9 times. To do this, he will have to mud-stomp the Warriors, who just re-signed Durant. And he'll have the opportunity to do this with a team in need of a veteran leader with a proven pedigree.

It is a good move for competition, and it leaves the Eastern Conference ready for a new dynasty. Philly, Boston, and Toronto are ready for that, with the Knicks in the wings.

Hockey is still the best game you can name, but the NBA is looking more interesting.

[Arkandel]

@ganymede What I love about the NBA is how active it is in the off season. All these moves!

Now the Lakers - depending on what happens with the big name free agents left in the market like Kawhi (of course) and Boogie - could get even scarier. I personally hope they don't give up Ingram, that kid has it in him to be great, and he's only 20 years old with two years league experience in his pocket already.

If they can stretch Deng and get Cousins for example, but keep the rest of the team in place... something like Ball, LeBron, Ingram, Kuzma, Boogie with a bench of IT, Stevenson, Hart, KCP... that's a stacked team. For starters it has no defensive liabilities; everyone is at least competent, some are great defenders. Lots of length.

Their experience is an issue, and LeBron will eventually start to wear down from age, but no team is perfect. They can make a real run for it. I love their coach, too.

[Ganymede]

@arkandel

Yeah, because Toronto isn't going fucking crazy right now, right?

[Arkandel]

@ganymede Can you imagine Toronto finally making it to the Finals... only to meet LeBron there?