Oct 14, 2017, 10:13 PM
@ghost That's a concern about every character on a game regardless of whether it's and FC, OC, gender/sexuality swapped or anything else.
That kind of player is going to turn anything into that kind of character.
FCs on Comic MUs
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@ghost That's a concern about every character on a game regardless of whether it's and FC, OC, gender/sexuality swapped or anything else.
That kind of player is going to turn anything into that kind of character.
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@kanye-qwest We've got them already. it's a non-issue.
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And I do apologize if I have been coming off as stodgy or stolid. That wasn't my intent. Actually I find a lot of comic book games to be conservative and holding to some sort of odd verisimilitude in the most baffling ways, when their focus should be on encouraging players to tell brave, outlandish and beautiful stories.
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First off, it’s weirdly refreshing to see someone Who would rather err on the side of caution rather than just diving in to something* with none fucks given regarding whatever theme, setting, or canon is involved, @Collective. I think you’re probably being overly cautious in this case, but I want to point out what you’ve described as being worthy of whatever sort of awesome points there are for two reasons: first being the ‘you care about how your characters may impact the game reality’ thing — which not everyone does, and it can get hugely problematic — and second being the way you describe handling it: disclose, ask, discuss. In other words, acting like an actual mature adult with respect for those around them.
It’s a damnable shame anyone has to over a question of IC sexuality to me, since I have to say I’m with @ixokai on this one 100% here, but this does not diminish the level of ‘damn, it’s refreshing to see someone ask about these things because they give a damn’.
I mean this in the broadest sense, too — be it canon characters (I would include roster characters on a game with them in the same category here) or setting elements or IC history— man, I wish more people asked about stuff. Not just to avoid stepping into an expectations bear trap of some kind, either, but because whatever that element is someone is asking about when apping a character or doing something new with an existing one, it gives the folks being asked (presumably staff) the chance to hook them up with more info they might have, more options they know of that might not be readily apparent to a new player that are opened up because of the thing they want to do differently, etc. I loved giving people info like this to run with whenever I staffed; it’s admittedly less relevant with this specific example, but the general premise holds.
Essentially, there’s a lot of active support that staff can generally toss a player’s way, the more they know, to help the person hit the ground running. That this chance is often lost is more wince-worthy to me than people plowing ahead with something that for whatever reason really doesn’t work and potentially getting someone’s knickers in a knot over it. That so many staffers throw away that chance (without some circumstance like being so overworked there’s just no time) is even more bleah.
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@tnp said in FCs on Comic MUs:
@ghost That's a concern about every character on a game regardless of whether it's and FC, OC, gender/sexuality swapped or anything else.
That kind of player is going to turn anything into that kind of character.
Right but I think fandom and genre love plays even more a factor on comic book games.
It's easy to go OMG DR STRANGE WOULDN'T DO THAT to an existing character. Theres less of that with an OC
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@kanye-qwest said in FCs on Comic MUs:
@tnp but is @ixokai going to take steps to protect players if the /playerbase/ cares that they app a bi or gay FC?
Yes.
It won't happen, but if it did: players do not, flatly, have a right to care about how someone elses character is being played. If a player doesn't like that, they can play elsewhere.
EDIT:
Let me rephrase. People have a right to care about anything they want to care about. Quietly, privately and in their own skull. They absolutely do not have a right to bug other players about if they're playing a character "right" or not. That won't be tolerated-- for any situation, be it a character's race, gender, sexuality, particular universe they come from, background, attitude, relationships with other characters... any of it.
It's never happened before but it'd be considered a conduct violation: it'd be dealt with, without hesitation.
We'd aren't the biggest game around but we are not concerned with numbers. If someone's a douchebag, we're fine with having one less player.
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What he said.
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@ixokai said in FCs on Comic MUs:
@kanye-qwest said in FCs on Comic MUs:
@tnp but is @ixokai going to take steps to protect players if the /playerbase/ cares that they app a bi or gay FC?
Yes.
It won't happen, but if it did: players do not, flatly, have a right to care about how someone elses character is being played. If a player doesn't like that, they can play elsewhere.
And what about the inverse?
What happens if someone apps Batwoman then plays her as straight?
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@arkandel said in FCs on Comic MUs:
@ixokai said in FCs on Comic MUs:
@kanye-qwest said in FCs on Comic MUs:
@tnp but is @ixokai going to take steps to protect players if the /playerbase/ cares that they app a bi or gay FC?
Yes.
It won't happen, but if it did: players do not, flatly, have a right to care about how someone elses character is being played. If a player doesn't like that, they can play elsewhere.
And what about the inverse?
What happens if someone apps Batwoman then plays her as straight?
What's the difference?
Are you asking if I'm only protective of minorities? The answer is no. Its not just black and gay people who get our protection from people trying to tell them they're playing something wrong.
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I think that unless there's a rule about needing to adhere to canon character design in terms of gender, race, and sexuality (note: an actual, existing policy requesting this would go over about as well as a lead balloon), that an honest attempt to do something artistic with the character should be treated by the player base with the same respect that they expect in return.
IMO, the best way to handle this is as such:
A lot of Marvel complaints about the influx of characters having major role rewrites based on sexuality, political stance, racial or gender demographic, is the complaint that the existing character didn't need to be changed, and that they could have just introduced a new character. It makes it very difficult for a game full of FCs to understand what IS or ISNT canon if the Captain America has a wildly different backstory (Does this mean that Secret Wars never happened?!?!)
Now, those of us who pay attention and are smart know the reality, which is that Female Thor isn't a rewrite of Thor Odinson, but Jane Foster wielding the hammer. That Riri Williams isn't "Black/Female Tony Stark", but a new character taking on an Iron Man mantle.
It's a shame that a certain amount of people are culturally okay with one-way reimagining of characters when it suits their social preferences of race/gender/sexuality, but aren't comfortable having existing characters with those preferential demographics being altered.
Sucks, but I think the effort to being universal, fair, and open minded on this topic is an obstacle course lined with Hog Pit posts.
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Considering how many times various comic characters have changed writers, directions, even origin stories from time to time, I think the entire idea of a "canon game" is ludicrous and anyone who tries it is asking for trouble.
Easy: Nothing is canon, so no one has to worry about what is or isn't canon. The character's +bg and +sheets are what happened!
For those who are gonna say, JUST MAKE ALL OCS THEN, shh. No. People wanna play make-believe with Captain America and Batman. Let'em.
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@ixokai said in FCs on Comic MUs:
For those who are gonna say, JUST MAKE ALL OCS THEN, shh. No. People wanna play make-believe with Captain America and Batman. Let'em.
Can you update the M1963 advertisement a little for me? I'm seriously interested in what you're throwing down, and I'd like to try and add something to the game if I can when I app onto it. I've had an OC brewing for a long time, and I'd like to try her.
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@ganymede said in FCs on Comic MUs:
@ixokai said in FCs on Comic MUs:
For those who are gonna say, JUST MAKE ALL OCS THEN, shh. No. People wanna play make-believe with Captain America and Batman. Let'em.
Can you update the M1963 advertisement a little for me? I'm seriously interested in what you're throwing down, and I'd like to try and add something to the game if I can when I app onto it. I've had an OC brewing for a long time, and I'd like to try her.
Sure, its late and I'm into the bourbon, so I'll have to do it tomorrow. But what? Is it our policy and treatment of OCs vs MC's and our non-canon status that you're looking for a statement on the ad about? Or 'current state of the game'?
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More the latter.
I've had a couple of pepper ales, and some Woodford Reserve before that.
We gonna be friends.
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@ghost said in FCs on Comic MUs:
Now, those of us who pay attention and are smart know the reality, which is that Female Thor isn't a rewrite of Thor Odinson, but Jane Foster wielding the hammer.
My stupid nerd derail is that it isn't even a new idea, like, Jane having the hammer was one of the very first What If things
(I think Riri was handled poorly but tbh I think that's unavoidable with Bendis; the Jessica Jones/Luke Cage relationship started with a joke about how she lets him fuck her in the ass cus she hates herself. ~comics~)
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@ghost said in FCs on Comic MUs:
I've chimed off on this before (re: FC sexuality), but I don't think the concern is so much on the sexuality of the character. I think it has more to do with how the character will behave under the control of the player.
I have no issues with a female Captain America or even a gay Captain America (there might be a compelling story to tell in Steve Rogers arriving in the modern age and realizing that he can be gay in 2017 with a certain amount of respect that wasn't prevalent in 1941).
I like to think that players would approach those gender/sexuality issues as a means of compelling story.
HOW and EVER...
I think the real concern people have is in a Captain America transported to 2017 as FUCK EVERYTHING THAT MOVES BONDAGE SEX SWING NEVER INVOLVES IN ANY STORY AND SENDS EVERYONE DICK PICS Captain America, thus really putting aside any meaningful role playing with the character concept in favor of using the character as a sandbox Shang Alt.
We'd seen mentions recently of gay fish Daken uncomfortably hitting on people IC and OOC, and mentions of Sex Magic Sorcerer Supreme Dr Strange.
So, in summary, I think the concern is less on gender/sexuality of the FC and more on whether or not they'll be used like a Harvey Weinstein extension of the player's whims, thus becoming more of a distraction than a contribution.
Pretty much all of this. Except I will say I'm not really okay with gender-swapping FCs. Making Captain America a woman is an entirely different beast (on an entirely different planet) than making Cap gay or bi.
As for sexuality, though, the thing is, if I'm not involved, I really shouldn't have any reason to know your Captain America is gay.
Yeah, there's lot of 'interpretations of characters' and stuff, but....IDK, I'm pretty sure I've never seen "super flirty and promiscuous Captain America who is totally open about sexuality".
The other thing is it's very common for people on Hero games to shack up with one person, which again, both makes it obvious and odds are you're not living up to your 'responsibilities' as a high profile FC.
It's not hard to play "gay Psylocke" or something and have it fly mostly under the radar if you have any fucking concept of discretion. But if you're taking trips to Lady Mastermind's Lesbian BDSM Mansion in England and staying there for months IC with other female PCs, and actually broadcasting the fact...uh...yeah, you might get people talking shit about you. (Details here are off, it's been a while, but that's vaguely based on a true story.)
tl;dr Nobody (except dumbasses) cares if you play a 'good' Wolverine/whatever who just happens to be gay, while staying active in your sphere/etc. When "I am playing gay so-and-so" becomes the focal point of what YOU as a player are doing, rather than just "I am playing so-and-so", is the problem.
ETA : This is just a general huge personal peeve for me. People have no concept of 'time and place' for when to do this stuff, and/or they are so desperate for attention, they'll put this stuff in the forefront when it has no real purpose. (Cough. Crossing to WoD for a second. Dragging ghouls to Elysium or into COURT on a leash and having them call you 'Daddy' in public scenes.)
Like goddamn, even if Dr. Strange and Rogue were doing SEX MAGIC shit.
WHY THE FUCK DOES LITERALLY ANYBODY ELSE ON THE GAME KNOW ABOUT IT?
There's a big difference between stuff like "oh that Spider-Woman is dating Psylocke" and "that Spider-Woman and Psylocke constantly make every scene about their relationship and talk casually about BDSM shit ICly and on channels and have invited 27 different other female PCs to BDSM Land with almost no cause".
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@tempest said in FCs on Comic MUs:
tl;dr Nobody (except dumbasses) cares if you play a 'good' Wolverine/whatever who just happens to be gay, while staying active in your sphere/etc. When "I am playing gay so-and-so" becomes the focal point of what YOU as a player are doing, rather than just "I am playing so-and-so", is the problem.
ETA : This is just a general huge personal peeve for me. People have no concept of 'time and place' for when to do this stuff, and/or they are so desperate for attention, they'll put this stuff in the forefront when it has no real purpose. (Cough. Crossing to WoD for a second. Dragging ghouls to Elysium or into COURT on a leash and having them call you 'Daddy' in public scenes.)
Like goddamn, even if Dr. Strange and Rogue were doing SEX MAGIC shit.
WHY THE FUCK DOES LITERALLY ANYBODY ELSE ON THE GAME KNOW ABOUT IT?
There's a big difference between stuff like "oh that Spider-Woman is dating Psylocke" and "that Spider-Woman and Psylocke constantly make every scene about their relationship and talk casually about BDSM shit ICly and on channels and have invited 27 different other female PCs to BDSM Land with almost no cause".
yes this all of this
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@Ganymede Here's the timeline. It's not definitive. http://www.marvel-1963.com/timeline
Let's see if I can summarize the highlights... It's 1964. The Asgardians recently 'came out', letting the world know they exist and not only claiming to be 'gods' but the ones from thousands of years ago.
Not long after that, the world learned aliens really exist when JFK was assassinated. By Loki. Except it turned out to be a Skrull taking his shape. Why? Because Kennedy was a long term Kree agent. Skrulls also tried taking over SHIELD by replacing agents but were stopped. The Kree are currently making life miserable for the Inhumans (who are still not out).
At this hour, that's what I can think of off the top of my head. I'll let @ixokai add more.
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@tempest Keep in mind it's 1964. There's no tolerance for gays. In fact, the word's not really in use yet. Homosexuals are considered deviant by most of the government, the country, and the world. There are 2 'alternative' clubs built on the grid. One's a dive where you can find drag queens that gets raided periodically and ICly has to move locations. The other is a high class place that caters to the outcasts of society: gays, lesbians, mutants, blacks, etc. Both are guarded by mob enforcers who pay off the cops. Stonewall hasn't happened yet; in fact, it doesn't exist yet. It's still a restaurant, not a bar. So basically, you're not going to see it in public.
As for gender swaps, they can be particularly interesting because of the same reasoning. Like gays, blacks, mutants and other minorities, women are still second class citizens. Women with power are very rare. (By power I include things like being a CEO, a police detective, etc.) If they happen at all, they're going to be the subject of prejudice and/or resentment. We make sure this is noted during the app process and is usually a flaw or mentioned in the BG. A female Cap would be problematic since women combatants were not a thing in WWII and would certainly not be the subject of super soldier experiments. If possible at all, there would need to be a lot of consultation with staff on how that would work.