Regarding administration on MSB

faraday

@arkandel said in Regarding administration on MSB:

I honestly don't agree with that. I've seen it in the past way before I ever was an admin here, when I'd call someone on stuff they said even in the Hog Pit just because it seemed... well, out of line. And folks might have argued back a couple of times but they stopped. They cut it out.

I'm not saying it never happened, but it was the exception rather than the rule in the threads I saw. Perhaps you personally just had better luck calling people on things because folks respected you. But we can agree to disagree on whether it's pointless.

Meg

I think that people who think all of MSB is just a trashcan fire are going to keep thinking all of MSB is a trashcan fire, no matter the moderation. People that post confrontational, asshole-ish things are going to keep posting that.

What really concerns me is us in the middle. I shared a RL story in the Hog Pit on a thread. It was a hard RL story to share, because it is shit that people rarely talk about because we're conditioned not to, but it was relevant to the discussion. I was met with a moderator saying not to share RL stories on the thread. I have no way of knowing if she was speaking as just another poster or as a moderator.

But man, it struck me wrong, guys. Not because I dislike @Auspice. Not because she was moderating. There is no clarity. There's no sense of that being done for the community. It was bad mojo.

Three-Eyed Crow

@meg
What bugged me about that particular mod action, is that people weren't attacking you because of your story. You'd made the decision to share it and it led to a few decent posts before @auspice came in (without using mod voice, which also bugged me, so I'm not even sure I can call it a 'mod action' or not). If that post was flagged, that was one thing, but I did not perceive any sign it had been. If it was just a personal response...that should be separated from moderation in some kind of obvious way.

surreality

To my understanding, she did not come in to silence the discussion as a poster or a mod. The suggestion to move it to a new thread to contain discussions like it -- since they arise often on many games (which is unfortunate) -- that could be found more easily based on the subject matter.

It's important to a lot of us, which means it's to everyone's benefit that it not be lost in the middle of a thread about a game that will likely be so dead inside two months that no one would think to look for any valuable information there of any kind.

That was how I read it, anyway. I've made the same suggestion for the same reason on a number of topics, especially those about things we'd really prefer to only have to describe once and not have to repeat or spend forever searching out a link for with the forum's normally craptastic search capabilities.

Ganymede

@meg said in Regarding administration on MSB:

I have no way of knowing if she was speaking as just another poster or as a moderator.

We're working on making this clearer, and I'm not perfect on this either. It is safe to presume that unless I mark my comment clearly, I'm responding as a sour-old lawbot, and not as a moderator.

I concur with surreality's assessment. I thought your story was difficult, but important to tell. Putting in a massive, smoldering shit-fire of a topic obfuscates it in a way that I thought could be avoided. I cannot and do not speak for Auspice, but I might've suggested something similar to highlight your story rather than shut it down.

Auspice

To be bluntly frank, since I just woke up:
I almost added to that post <not mod voice>, but I thought: 'These are adults. We've flagged our posts to explicitly say mod voice. They're smart enough to know that it's not mod voice.'

Apparently not.

Three-Eyed Crow

@auspice
Except, like @Ganymede said, mod voice isn't being used consistently, which is an issue being discussed in this thread, so it's not at all clear what's a slap from on high and what is just us slapping each other like normal.

Auspice

If I'm saying something as a mod, I'll flag it. The closest I've come otherwise is going 'Please don't make me break out the mod voice.'

Are people really so obtuse they cannot tell the difference?
Are people really so hell bent on being shitty to one another that they'll do so until the mod voice comes out?

Kanye Qwest

@auspice said in Regarding administration on MSB:

To be bluntly frank, since I just woke up:
I almost added to that post <not mod voice>, but I thought: 'These are adults. We've flagged our posts to explicitly say mod voice. They're smart enough to know that it's not mod voice.'

Apparently not.

Wait, so since you weren't clear, we are stupid non adults for not realizing your unhelpful advice on what belongs in which thread wasn't mod voice?

@auspice said in Regarding administration on MSB:

Are people really so obtuse they cannot tell the difference?

Yikes. Weren't you the one saying personal insults outside the hog pit should not be allowed, at all?

Ganymede

@kanye-qwest

MOD VOICE

I think we're treading away from being helpful. Let's go back to talking about ways we can fix moderating.

As I said, we're working on things. Arkandel has asked me to prepare a "Rules of Engagement v 2.0" for the forum. The draft is made and being wrangled over. Part of it includes something on this topic.

Kanye Qwest

Excuse me? Your fellow mod is the one who set that tone. If you want to fix moderating, fix that.

Ganymede

@kanye-qwest

MOD VOICE

And I am. Is there anything else helpful you wish to add?

Meg

I think it's unhelpful to assume that we're stupid because we don't know what is being moderated or not. I can appreciate people's concerns about my story getting obfuscated, but when someone speaks up to share their RL experiences, it shouldn't matter where. They are choosing to share them there, and it can feel very silencing for a mod to come in and say 'not here'.

It is the same thing that happens in RL. You can't share your stories at work, because that is inappropriate. You can't share your stories at a party, because it will bring down the mood. Then people wonder why no one ever hears the stories that we all collectively have.

Tat

@ganymede said in Regarding administration on MSB:

@meg said in Regarding administration on MSB:

I have no way of knowing if she was speaking as just another poster or as a moderator.

We're working on making this clearer, and I'm not perfect on this either. It is safe to presume that unless I mark my comment clearly, I'm responding as a sour-old lawbot, and not as a moderator.

I don't think it's fair to ask people to make this presumption, at least not until there is a very long and clear history of clarity. And even then, I'm not sure. It sort of puts the onus on the people who are not moderators to not accidentally cross a line, and I really feel that it should go the opposite way. The burden should be on moderators to be clear, not on posters to interpret correctly.

I feel that it would be much safer to either not say things that sound moderatorish if you aren't in your mod suit, or label everything.

ETA: Whoa wait. @Auspice Not recognizing a voice that has been used inconsistently when not recognizing it means you might GET IN TROUBLE is not being /obtuse/.

I've had bosses like this. Bosses who were not clear about when they were joking around and when they were serious. I couldn't tell the difference. It was a nightmare. And they were not good bosses.

If you want to be a good moderator, be clear, and don't semi-insult people for not reading your mind. I mean. Man. We aren't in your brain, we cannot discern intent, even if we think we ought to be able to.

Sunny

This is really, really, really bad. I am super uncomfortable with how these things are being handled in the present sense. Like I can't even get my words together to coherently object to what is being done in this thread because all I want to do is gibber and point. What. The. Hell.

Ganymede

@meg said in Regarding administration on MSB:

I can appreciate people's concerns about my story getting obfuscated, but when someone speaks up to share their RL experiences, it shouldn't matter where. They are choosing to share them there, and it can feel very silencing for a mod to come in and say 'not here'.

I understand that. As has been said, the confusion seems to be whether Auspice was talking as a mod or a poster; I think she made it clear it was the latter.

It is the same thing that happens in RL. You can't share your stories at work, because that is inappropriate. You can't share your stories at a party, because it will bring down the mood. Then people wonder why no one ever hears the stories that we all collectively have.

I also understand what you're saying here, but if someone told me about the abuse they suffered from their significant other I would still recommend that they talk to the police or a lawyer to know what their rights are. And if they told me they had something important to say of a sensitive nature, I would probably suggest moving aside so I can hear them better or so that they do not need to raise their voices over the din of the crowd.

@tat said in Regarding administration on MSB:

I don't think it's fair to ask people to make this presumption, at least not until there is a very long and clear history of clarity.

You're right, and that's why we're going to address the presumption/non-presumption in the new set of Rules of Engagement.

Kanye Qwest

@ganymede Ok, and yet no one is addressing the tone Auspice took, both in that thread after defenses as to the relevance of that story were made, AND HERE. It's not ok to call people stupid because they didn't understand you were being a regular silencing ass instead of authority silencing ass.

Three-Eyed Crow

I do want to make clear that I spent a not-insignificant amount of time last night in PMs with @Arkandel and @Ganymede about my issues with how the United Heroes thread move was handled, felt like they listened to my concerns, and worked quickly and hard to resolve them. I do appreciate that and I think it's how moderation should work, and I don't want that to get lost because it was going on while the whole Hitler thread thing was reaching max Godwin's Law.

I'm glad the rules are being clarified, though, because oh gosh I hope no one is arguing they're crystal clear and consistent right now.

Sunny

Apparently, yes, I am an idiot. If that admission is what it takes for clarity to be offered, YES. FINE. I AM AN IDIOT. I AM COMPLETELY OBTUSE.

Please be clear about mod voice, or when you're not using it while you're telling people what to do.
Please stop telling people to stop behaviors that aren't against the rules, particularly sharing personal stories in the Hog Pit. HOG PIT. PERSONAL STORIES. NOBODY WAS EVEN BEING PICKED ON.
Please stop threatening people with bans because they object to how modding is being so inconsistent.
Please stop saying 'you asked for this' every time somebody brings up a problem with the HOW modding is being done.
Please stop trying to silence criticism with 'well, we aren't perfect'.
Please stop asking us to just trust you as a response to 'THIS BEHAVIOR RIGHT HERE IS IS PROBLEM'.

Ganymede

@three-eyed-crow said in Regarding administration on MSB:

I'm glad the rules are being clarified, though, because oh gosh I hope no one is arguing they're crystal clear and consistent right now.

MOD VOICE

No. They are not.