How should IC discrimination be handled?

Ganymede

@autumn said in How should IC discrimination be handled?:

It's not that I don't believe in characters changing radically in play -- a thrillseeking Acanthus who believes in never spending two consecutive nights in the same bed or passing out with an unspent dollar in her pocket could certainly evolve into someone who keeps a household and is a sort of passable foster mom. But the impact of that evolution is lost if the only reason she was a lazy trickster in the first place is "because her player thought it'd be a laugh."

She was terrible at keeping a household, and it's a damned remarkable thing that she and her sociopathic, violent, militant girlfriend didn't end up getting their more-kidnapped-than-foster child killed because she impulsively decided to melt the face off of Russian Mobster Nomer Odin.

bored

@rebekahse said in How should IC discrimination be handled?:

(It was probably Firan, AKA "the best argument in the world for the idea that people are willing to play characters in games that poop on everybody except rich white men").

It pooped on them pretty well too. See pretty much precisely what @Apos described a bit back or the hypothetical western sheriff, re: leaders getting a lot of this piled on them. Firan was a pretty perfect example as they loved making players guess over the correct moral judgment (when, surprise: there's no right answer and they'd skewer you either way). I had to arbitrate racism (miscegenation, no less!), and class issues, with very vocal PCs on both sides of both issues and the staff controlled NPC mobs ready to lynch at the slightest misstep. Good times!

Louis Manigault

What handling is there needed, really? We play games where murder, betrayal, and torture are the norm, and we're going to get our knickers in a twist about the idea of someone having some prejudices IC, or making inappropriate remarks (by today's standards anyway)?

What's more outrageous than prejudiced characters is that there are players who flip their wig over them.

deadculture

@bored said in How should IC discrimination be handled?:

@rebekahse said in How should IC discrimination be handled?:

(It was probably Firan, AKA "the best argument in the world for the idea that people are willing to play characters in games that poop on everybody except rich white men").

It pooped on them pretty well too. See pretty much precisely what @Apos described a bit back or the hypothetical western sheriff, re: leaders getting a lot of this piled on them. Firan was a pretty perfect example as they loved making players guess over the correct moral judgment (when, surprise: there's no right answer and they'd skewer you either way). I had to arbitrate racism (miscegenation, no less!), and class issues, with very vocal PCs on both sides of both issues and the staff controlled NPC mobs ready to lynch at the slightest misstep. Good times!

It didn't really matter what issues you were tackling on Firan, merely WHO was handling it, I think. It was more personified on the player of the character than the character or even their actions themselves.

Arkandel

@louis-manigault said in How should IC discrimination be handled?:

What handling is there needed, really?

Read this thread. There is no question handling these themes carefully is necessary since there are players who are affected by them; the question is only what kind and to what degree.

We play games where murder, betrayal, and torture are the norm, and we're going to get our knickers in a twist about the idea of someone having some prejudices IC, or making inappropriate remarks (by today's standards anyway)?

Yes, because very few of us have been murdered or tortured, but some of us have been victims of sexism, racism, etc. It's easy to say "don't take it personally" when it has been personal to someone for most of their lives.

Louis Manigault

@arkandel said in How should IC discrimination be handled?:

@louis-manigault said in How should IC discrimination be handled?:

What handling is there needed, really?

Read this thread. There is no question handling these themes carefully is necessary since there are players who are affected by them; the question is only what kind and to what degree.

We play games where murder, betrayal, and torture are the norm, and we're going to get our knickers in a twist about the idea of someone having some prejudices IC, or making inappropriate remarks (by today's standards anyway)?

Yes, because very few of us have been murdered or tortured, but some of us have been victims of sexism, racism, etc. It's easy to say "don't take it personally" when it has been personal to someone for most of their lives.

Most of us have been betrayed, yet we don't make an issue of that IC. Having trust weaponized against you is one of the most awful experiences to live through. If one has never been betrayed, then they truly have lived a sheltered existence, and their cries of "racism!" or "sexism!" are very likely from petty experiences to the effect of being asked "Can I help you?" in a snotty fashion at an upscale department store or being told they can't join the boys' football team.

Just as betrayal can lead to trust issues, being subject to some kind of -ism can lead to oversensitivity issues. However, in both cases, the issue is still with the person holding the issue. Just as people with trust issues are behooved to get over it, people with oversensitivity issues are behooved to get over it as well.

The real issue is not with the portrayal of -isms IC, but the expectation that they don't get portrayed because you personally have been subject to that kind of -ism. The expectation that the world conforms to you is one of the most puerile, self-centered, childish outlooks one can have. These people need to grow up and get over themselves.

Tat

I've found this thread interesting because, although I have played with and played characters who have held varying degrees of discriminatory views, I've never really thought about the degree to which such might make someone uncomfortable, so it's been very educational in that respect.

There has long been a policy on games I've helped run about the way in which we expect our R-rated, limited consent games to deal with violence. It says:

The game is rated R for in-scene language and adult situations. Also, be aware of the general tone of the game. We do deal with some darker subject matters, however, we ask that you be sensitive to other players and be sure that violence and explicit situations are a part of character development through RP rather than incidental, gratuitous, or continuous.

Additionally, we ask that out of courtesy for your fellow players, you place a warning on any explicit scenes or text, particularly in issues of abuse.

We wrote this policy after we had some players RP violence and abuse sort of as an offhand 'I'm bored let's do something' type of situation - no follow-through, no character growth, no real consequences of any sort. That's not the sort of game we were, or wanted to be. But we also didn't want to say that you couldn't deal with those themes at all, so this policy grew.

For me, adding 'discrimination' to this list seems like a good start in terms of addressing how I'd expect to see it handled. Don't walk into a bar and start spouting off racist terms for shock value. Be sensitive to making other players uncomfortable, both in language and in content. Clearly label logs that deal heavily with this subject matter. Subtler forms of -isms should lend themselves to character and story growth and should have consequences (for both sides of the equation) and should not exist in a vacuum. And it shouldn't be something that comes up almost every time you RP a scene.

Some of this is easier for me because I don't run historical games, where the consequences or frequency might be murkier, but I think the people who have been saying that there's a clear difference between an asshole who insists on their right to use the n-word or refuses to off-cam scenes and the person who plays a character who wants to play off the tension and struggle and drama the presence of an -ism sometimes provides are in the right ball park.

Arkandel

@louis-manigault said in How should IC discrimination be handled?:

The expectation that the world conforms to you is one of the most puerile, self-centered, childish outlooks one can have. These people need to grow up and get over themselves.

We don't all deal with things the same way. Expecting that, and showing little or no willingness to see other people's point of view, gives them very little reason to care about your own.

saosmash

@arkandel You know you're feeding the troll, right? Roll your eyes and move on. Their stated position is as far from constructive as it is possible to be.

Apos

@saosmash said in How should IC discrimination be handled?:

@arkandel You know you're feeding the troll, right? Roll your eyes and move on. Their stated position is as far from constructive as it is possible to be.

Yea, registered recently. I've never met anyone that held those kind of stances that didn't also get extremely offended when similar stuff was directed at them, so their life philosophy is easiest summed up as, "Any kind of offense directed at me is bad and should stop immediately, any offense directed at others they should suck up because they are oversensitive."

Louis Manigault

@apos said in How should IC discrimination be handled?:

@saosmash said in How should IC discrimination be handled?:

@arkandel You know you're feeding the troll, right? Roll your eyes and move on. Their stated position is as far from constructive as it is possible to be.

Yea, registered recently. I've never met anyone that held those kind of stances that didn't also get extremely offended when similar stuff was directed at them, so their life philosophy is easiest summed up as, "Any kind of offense directed at me is bad and should stop immediately, any offense directed at others they should suck up because they are oversensitive."

I mean, what exactly are you going to do, give me a raft of shit for being a fucking white male? I'm not really offended by that sort of thing, I just think it's retarded.

Apos

@louis-manigault Nah that's being hypocritical cause you don't wanna use the word 'offended', since you associate that with snowflakes. Being irritated or annoyed or angry -is- being offended, it counts. It's not all clutching pearls while a monocle drops into a tea cup in horror, man.

Louis Manigault

@apos said in How should IC discrimination be handled?:

@louis-manigault Nah that's being hypocritical cause you don't wanna use the word 'offended', since you associate that with snowflakes. Being irritated or annoyed or angry -is- being offended, it counts. It's not all clutching pearls while a monocle drops into a tea cup in horror, man.

Please tell me more about how I feel, since you're such an authority on the matter.

Arkandel

@louis-manigault said in How should IC discrimination be handled?:

@apos said in How should IC discrimination be handled?:

@louis-manigault Nah that's being hypocritical cause you don't wanna use the word 'offended', since you associate that with snowflakes. Being irritated or annoyed or angry -is- being offended, it counts. It's not all clutching pearls while a monocle drops into a tea cup in horror, man.

Please tell me more about how I feel, since you're such an authority on the matter.

This is the constructive section. Please behave or leave.

faraday

@arkandel said in How should IC discrimination be handled?:

There is no question handling these themes carefully is necessary

In truth, though, there are many themes that have the potential to upset or offend someone. IC -ism and sexual assault are the two we point to all the time, but that's by no means an exhaustive list. Someone who had to deal with a loved one with a particular mental illness may be sensitive to depictions of that (e.g. suicide but that's not the only example). Someone who lost a child may be horribly upset seeing a plotline where children were harmed. First responders and soldiers may be triggered by all kinds of things. And although it makes me feel icky to agree with the troll in any fashion, betrayal can be a sensitive subject too for someone who's gone through that sort of thing iRL. I've seen people leave games over it.

Games should set expectations. Players should ask questions if they're concerned about how a particular theme would be handled. We should come up with tools to help people resolve difficulties. These are all good things worth discussing, for sure. But that doesn't necessarily mean we should treat this particular sensitive situation any different than any other.

Louis Manigault

@faraday This is fair, actually. Setting content expectations is exactly what MU*'s and other online games of this sort should be doing. If you step outside those boundaries as a player, then you're out of line. But if you're within them, and someone on the outside gets "triggered"? Tough luck, buttercup.

It's the fairest compromise one can reasonably arrive at. And it's not even really a compromise, it's just good policy to let people know what the deal is on your little outpost in the Interwebs.

EDIT: Also, the reason I'm getting so loud about this topic is I'm used to people going on horror games and throwing tantrums when it turns out there is horrifying content therein. It's utterly obnoxious and childish. Frankly, it's not acceptable.

Kanye Qwest

@louis-manigault said in How should IC discrimination be handled?:

, and their cries of "racism!" or "sexism!" are very likely from petty experiences to the effect of being asked "Can I help you?" in a snotty fashion at an upscale department store or being told they can't join the boys' football team.

You are trying too hard.

Arkandel

@faraday said in How should IC discrimination be handled?:

@arkandel said in How should IC discrimination be handled?:

There is no question handling these themes carefully is necessary

In truth, though, there are many themes that have the potential to upset or offend someone. IC -ism and sexual assault are the two we point to all the time, but that's by no means an exhaustive list. Someone who had to deal with a loved one with a particular mental illness may be sensitive to depictions of that (e.g. suicide but that's not the only example).

Absolutely. I'm not trying to pre-emptively decide that action needs to be taken either way, only that we consider the question and see if adjustments are actually possible.

In fact I've left games over pretty much exactly what you mention here. A year or two ago TJ was putting together a nWoD game (again ) and he invited me to a Skype channel where we were chatting about theme, and when the question of horror came up one example that came up was a PrP based around a woman miscarrying a child. Someone put up a lot of objections about how might trigger people, and that we shouldn't permit that kind of plot to be ran, which ultimately led me to decide to not be part of that process.

Anyway, the discussion is still beneficial. I believe it's important to have it so we can figure out - among other things - whether there's a sweet spot for compromise between the two points of view.

Apos

@faraday Yeah, that. Twice I've quietly changed storylines because I just had someone give me a polite heads up that someone lost a loved one in the way that a story was moving towards depicting. It wasn't hard to write around it, and no one made a big deal about it.

Every player in a MU is effectively creating content whenever they rp, so they just generate stories under general guidelines with staff maybe deciding, 'these stories are just too big headaches and we aren't going to do those here'. That's never going to be exhaustive for what will bother the hell out of people, but frankly I've had way more experiences with people being reasonable and politely opting out of something with others then trying to accommodate them than I have people royally freaking out.

Thenomain

@arkandel said in How should IC discrimination be handled?:

Anyway, the discussion is still beneficial. I believe it's important to have it so we can figure out - among other things - whether there's a sweet spot for compromise between the two points of view.

Which two points of view are you talking about, here?