Alternative Formats to MU

[Roz]

@rnmissionrun said in Alternative Formats to MU:

I honestly don't think that the requirement to download and install an app in order to play on a MUSH is an issue at all. Millions of smartphone users understand the concept of "you need an app for that", as do most computer users.

The issue of people not wanting to type complicated commands, well that's a little different, but I look at it like this. You're communicating with others in a text-only medium. You're using words to convey visual information, emotion, sounds, moods. If you can handle all that, but are stymied by the syntax for the command to make a bbpost, then you're probably in the wrong hobby.

Yup, that's the overall attitude that makes the hobby generally unwelcoming to outsiders who might be interested in giving it a try.

[RnMissionRun]

@roz said in Alternative Formats to MU:

@rnmissionrun said in Alternative Formats to MU:

Yup, that's the overall attitude that makes the hobby generally unwelcoming to outsiders who might be interested in giving it a try.

If that's true, then labeling the very reasonable expectation that people learn to use the tools that are required by the venue in order to use it effectively (or at all), is another.

[Apos]

@rnmissionrun I dunno man, there's nothing intuitive about '+bb/post #_of_board/Re:Archaic MU syntax=I think this is awkward syntax'.

Like there's a good reason we're all posting on this website rather than using +bb on a community sandbox we connect to.

[faraday]

@rnmissionrun Literally nobody is saying that folks shouldn't learn to use the tools needed for the medium.

We're saying we need better tools.

I worked on the first color phone display and the first mobile web browser. I'm very proud of that work, but I guarantee you if you put a WAP browser or 4-color phone in someone's hands today they'd (rightly) be all: "WTF is this piece of junk? LOL people actually used this?!" Technology moves on. There might be some nostalgia involved in re-playing old Nintendo games, but you don't see people developing new stuff on that platform, because by modern standards it's woefully lacking.

[Roz]

@rnmissionrun said in Alternative Formats to MU:

@roz said in Alternative Formats to MU:

@rnmissionrun said in Alternative Formats to MU:

Yup, that's the overall attitude that makes the hobby generally unwelcoming to outsiders who might be interested in giving it a try.

If that's true, then labeling the very reasonable expectation that people learn to use the tools that are required by the venue in order to use it effectively (or at all), is another.

There's a difference between "the code and syntax and culture that has become ubiquitous across MUSHes is not intuitive and maybe needs to be improved OR at the very least maybe we could talk about how to write better educational tools for newcomers" and "people shouldn't have to learn the tools."

[Lithium]

@faraday This is why I like the idea of a full web integration, no needing a secondary client. It's absolutely true we need to get rid of the old syntax and just go with new syntax that is more intuitive. Even the nomenclature of what a 'pose' is can be disconcerting, @emit, @what?

[Tat]

@rnmissionrun said in Alternative Formats to MU:

The issue of people not wanting to type complicated commands, well that's a little different, but I look at it like this. You're communicating with others in a text-only medium. You're using words to convey visual information, emotion, sounds, moods. If you can handle all that, but are stymied by the syntax for the command to make a bbpost, then you're probably in the wrong hobby.

I've been M*ing for 19 years now and I am regularly stymied by the syntax for the command to bbpost. I have to look it up every damn time.

If that's not a sign that the tools are bad, I don't know what is.

I'd give a lot to be able to just post on a webpage, using clicky buttons. The ability to reply to posts on the web portal on Ares is one of the BEST BEST things.

Also? It's hilarious to me that we're talking about people not being bothered to learn the commands, when for YEARS I listened to MUSH players complain endlessly about MOO's mail system being different. We're like the most set-in-our-ways community and we're bitching about people who don't want to adapt to /us/?

[Lotherio]

@tat said in Alternative Formats to MU:

@rnmissionrun said in Alternative Formats to MU:

The issue of people not wanting to type complicated commands, well that's a little different, but I look at it like this. You're communicating with others in a text-only medium. You're using words to convey visual information, emotion, sounds, moods. If you can handle all that, but are stymied by the syntax for the command to make a bbpost, then you're probably in the wrong hobby.

I've been M*ing for 19 years now and I am regularly stymied by the syntax for the command to bbpost. I have to look it up every damn time.

If that's not a sign that the tools are bad, I don't know what is.

I'd give a lot to be able to just post on a webpage, using clicky buttons. The ability to reply to posts on the web portal on Ares is one of the BEST BEST things.

Also? It's hilarious to me that we're talking about people not being bothered to learn the commands, when for YEARS I listened to MUSH players complain endlessly about MOO's mail system being different. We're like the most set-in-our-ways community and we're bitching about people who don't want to adapt to /us/?

Right, just as funny, +bb boards are just a plugin to emulate forum posting so we can communicate on forums in the game. We decided collectively that +bbpost worked, cause of the softcode and no one ever changed the syntax even.

[Lithium]

@lotherio It's kind of a catch 22, if we code it using different commands, then people will complain about it being new syntax and not what they're used to. If we don't, then we are not being welcoming to new players

[faraday]

@lithium said in Alternative Formats to MU:

@lotherio It's kind of a catch 22, if we code it using different commands, then people will complain about it being new syntax and not what they're used to. If we don't, then we are not being welcoming to new players

It's only a catch-22 if we stick to the command line. That's the beauty of moving things to the web.

Setting that aside, you're right. I mean, with Ares I literally had to code everything from scratch. Pages, movement, who, bbs... everything. I could have made the syntax anything my heart desired.

But, y'know, I actually wanted MUSHers to play it, and they wouldn't have done so if I changed the syntax. They flat out wouldn't. So to @Lotherio's point - I didn't stick to the existing bbpost syntax out of laziness, I did it as a survival mechanism.

If folks would have accepted something different? I'd do what almost literally every other command-line tool out there does these days by using named arguments.

bbs post --subject Hey look at this --message This is so much more intuitive to the other 99% of the population who are not MUSHers.

ETA: I did make some tweaks to make it more approachable to new folks. Like renaming dig to build and ditching the +/@ prefixes. But even there I had to keep the old syntax/aliases for the veterans.

[Three-Eyed Crow]

I mean, you can alias things. I'm not a programmer, so maybe I underestimate the simplicity of this,but. Ares, and Evennia from my experience on Arx, alias a lot of MUSH commands even if you don't technically need to slap the + or @ or whatever in front of things to make them work, and even if MUX/MMO-like commands also work. I've seen MOOs that aliased MUSH-like commands to try and expand their audience.

Idk, man. The games I play on now are an Ares-based game and an Evennia-based game, so maybe I'm under-estimating how hard the transition is, but I know that when I have to slap a '+' in front of something I've gotten used to working without it, it seems silly, and also seems like a pretty basic hurdle to overcome.

[Sunny]

I was super against both Evennia and Rhost (in different contexts) and the new and different things...and Potato too, really. And then I tried them. I am now a diehard fan of all 3. I will likely be as much of a fan of AresMUSH once I get my grubby paws on it, now that I have stopped being old and grumpy and afraid of change.

[Thenomain]

@ganymede said in Alternative Formats to MU:

So, your complaint is about players, not the technology being discussed.

As I have said many, many times: This game would be great if it weren't for all the damn players.

Usually I say that when players are all, "Nyeh, this code is broken! Nyeeehhhh, I want phone and IM code! Nnnyeeehhh!"

(For those who don't watch Venture Bros, you really should. Nyeh is the sound that Shoreleave makes when mocking someone's whining.)

[golgoth]

I like this discussion.

Did you know that there have been games that have "transcended" MU for 15-20 years now? There are several games that have come (and some that have gone) that incorporated a web based forum into the MUSH client. +bbpost 1/Hello People!=Blah blah blah can be setup to show up on a forum AND the in-game BB so that players can read message board posts in the format they enjoyed. Many of the games out there have set up a way to look at the help/news/whatever files on the site OR inside the game.

Most of the most popular MUDs (I know, we're talking about MUSHes here, but we're also talking about drawing users in) right now also have fully integrated a Web-based client into their game. Instead of replacing a MU-client, the players generally have a choice to connect using the medium that they want. Some games have extra features added in for their website-side clients that MU Client users do not natively have, but these 'extra features' can easily be ported over to almost any MU Client out there. In fact, I can't really think of a current MU Client that doesn't have a means of adding modules to mimic what some web clients offer (other than phones).

Anyway, I'm rambling and not even really paying attention to what I am typing. Hope there is something interesting in my word vomit.

[Arkandel]

@golgoth said in Alternative Formats to MU:

Instead of replacing a MU-client, the players generally have a choice to connect using the medium that they want.

I just wanted to isolate this part if you don't mind so I could point out this is not at all what's wanted here.

Ditching the dedicated telnet client (Potato, SimpleMU, etc) for what comes down to a web-based telnet client isn't an upgrade - in fact it's probably the opposite, since instead of gaining something you are actually losing features such as triggers, custom word highlighting, spawns, etc. I mean there may be browser extensions which can be substituted to provide some of these but it would still not constitute the paradigm shift wanted here.

None of the complexity - the arcane CGen plus-commands, the long stream of arguments needed just to send a page or construct a bboard post - is gone, all you are spared (and that's a maybe) is to download and install a separate program

A good marker for a true web based client would be that it's impossible to carry its features over telnet. A point and click interface for instance from CGen to combat or a non-scrolling terrain grid, or a forum with threads you can expand/contract, stuff like that. Aside from the input complexity, everything you do using telnet produces so much scrolling.

[golgoth]

@arkandel If I bother, I'll find a means to add triggers, custom word highlighting, etc, to a webpage client (don't count on it, my plate is full until February) but why not add that functionality inside the game itself? Several games already do it. Hell, several games have been allowing players to do it for years. Macros/timers/triggers... I've seen all of these inside of a game. Custom word highlighting might be tricky, but I'm sure it can be done.

Also, someone mentioned not being able to save logs of their session. I just did a 'real quick look' at a game I thought might have it: Sindome. They have a 'log' button on their web client. Check out their html code for more info on how they do it? Or hell, ask Johnny, I'm sure he'll help you with it (maybe). Hell, I did a search for triggers on their main page and got this:
Macro Help Index

add - help with adding macros
delete - help with deleting macros
enable - help with enabling macros
disable - help with disabling macros
help - help with this help
triggers - help with automatic macros
general - loose ends

To note: I'm not poo-pooing telnet clients. I am actually trying to pitch my support for doing it 'both ways'.

[golgoth]

@Arkandel Just a double post because I didn't see the second and third paragraphs of your post:

For pages: Click user, send message. That's been done even for telnet based clients, but I think that requires Pueblo Enabled.

For CGen plus-commands: I haven't found a real quick solution for it, but I can. Players just won't like it since the idea that springs to mind is to force the player to ONLY do CGEN.

Also, you don't like the arcane plus-commands for character generation? There are several webside ways of form filling that will push what you do over to a character sheet in-game. That's been done on multiple games (New Seattle comes to mind).

[Arkandel]

@golgoth said in Alternative Formats to MU:

For pages: Click user, send message. That's been done even for telnet based clients, but I think that requires Pueblo Enabled.

So instead of a generic ancient protocol we'd go back to a proprietary one which may or not work for mobile devices and might or not require using a specific client.

For CGen plus-commands: I haven't found a real quick solution for it, but I can. Players just won't like it since the idea that springs to mind is to force the player to ONLY do CGEN.

It's not just CGen - that's just one easy example. There are so many regular game situations (i.e. after you already have a PC) when commands on MUSH just need to be long - look at the syntax to write a bbpost; that's absurd to a newcomer. Every time I have to create a +note (which in many MU* is necessary if you want to purchase certain abilities or merits) I find myself cursing, and I've been using this crap for years.

These are all solved problems with a basic web interface.

[Rook]

Anything that is done by command line is, by sheer necessity, a complex command string, period. MUSH derives from MUD, all of them are telnet-based interfaces because that is what was around, cheap and easy to run in the 90s.

Most anyone who cannot fathom commands in MUSH are the either going to do one of two things:

1. complain, grump and walk away and go back to their non-coded Chat Room RP or
2. be intrigued by Something New and Cool enough to actually start to learn things.

The average intelligent player (and come on, you have to be intelligent to MUSH) will learn how to MUSH in a matter of one or two days for the majority of anything that they have to do. I personally have seen more people walk away from their first time MUSHing for reasons having to do with the complexity of the RPG being used (I'm looking at you, WoD) or because of the interpersonal interactions had on the game itself with the Staff/Players, than I have ever seen leave because of "all that typing".

With that said, players will either be open to learning something new to fill an entertainment void in their life, or they won't. Format, media, interaction all matter, but what MUSH has going for it is the sheer quality of that entertainment, no matter how you present it.

[golgoth]

@arkandel said in Alternative Formats to MU:

@golgoth said in Alternative Formats to MU:

For pages: Click user, send message. That's been done even for telnet based clients, but I think that requires Pueblo Enabled.

So instead of a generic ancient protocol we'd go back to a proprietary one which may or not work for mobile devices and might or not require using a specific client.

So damned if you do, damned if you don't? I, like you on other topics, was using Pueblo as an example. I don't know what you'd need to get 'click user, send message' working any other way off the top of my head, but I'm certain I, or anyone with a bit of grinding out code, can figure out a way to make this happen.

For CGen plus-commands: I haven't found a real quick solution for it, but I can. Players just won't like it since the idea that springs to mind is to force the player to ONLY do CGEN.

It's not just CGen - that's just one easy example. There are so many regular game situations (i.e. after you already have a PC) when commands on MUSH just need to be long - look at the syntax to write a bbpost; that's absurd to a newcomer. Every time I have to create a +note (which in many MU* is necessary if you want to purchase certain abilities or merits) I find myself cursing, and I've been using this crap for years.

These are all solved problems with a basic web interface.

You're right, a lot of this is solved with a basic web interface... But now I'm starting to think: Why can't this be solved using a telnet client? It might need to be coded as a 'per client' thing (at least as far as I'm thinking) but I think I might be able to figure something out sometime. If I get time.

You'd need a module added to your client (you're already using macros, this is a step or 4 further), but I think it can be done. At least for the +notes portion... Probably for the +bbpost problem, too. Click to launch the module, type in your message, hit enter, close the module... ? I'll play with Potato a mudlet sometime to see if I can get that working.