Encouraging Proactive Players

[Lithium]

I hate the Aspirations system. It is book keeping and micro management. Someone who is willing to do that, can milk that system for infinite xp.

[Pyrephox]

I love the Aspirations system. It can be tremendously helpful, for me, in thinking about where I want to take my character and communicating the kind of experiences that I want to have as a player. It does need some thoughtful tweaking for a persistent setting (my recommendation would be to allow people to make new Aspirations weekly, rather than immediately when they fulfill a previous Aspiration, or tweaking the amount of XP/beats one obtains from them during a week, perhaps on a diminishing returns scale), but it can be pretty great.

[Apos]

@ganymede said in Encouraging Proactive Players:

@faraday

I have edited my response slightly. I'm talking about complaining about the game while on the game, which is what I think Apos is getting at.

We're two different people! If we ran a game together, you'd be the good cop, and that's okay with me. But, as I said, I don't mind complaints or whining as long as they aren't broadcasted because I think that has a very negative effect on a group of players.

Yeah, pretty much. I just think you can't talk about encouraging proactive players without talking about what discourages them, and criticism from other players is always going to be a large part of that. Can see the same thing with any enthusiasm in the hobby, such as people wanting to pitch a new game idea and getting disheartened, and I don't think that we should have the proactive creators just be people able to barrel through it all.

But of course where someone draws the line is up to them, I just err on being more strict.

[Auspice]

The sort of negative person who puts me off of running is the sort of person who is disruptive to the whole process.

Someone who is negative or has a bad day once in a while isn't a big deal. Like you, @faraday. The times we've talked when you've needed to vent? That would never be an issue to me because you're proactive, inclusive, supportive: you provide value in immense ways.

The sort of person that I think @apos is indicating is... well, let me tell a story.

on Fallcoast there was this guy. Mage, playing a PI. From day one, he was off-putting to people. And I say day one because I remember when he was still in CG. Throwing fits on channel because Staff wouldn't let him be everything he wanted to be (and this was on Fallcoast where they were extremely lax in the rules). He wanted to be 21, a Detective, a college graduate, and a 'powerful Mage.'

lolno.

But he wouldn't stop bitching on channels about how unfair it was that Staff wouldn't allow it to happen.

He'd drive people off channels with this.

He finally 'settled' for being 24 and a PI.

Later, I ran a plot for the Law sphere folks. He paged me asking if he could take part. I told him OK, but this is specifically catered to the law sphere (now I had a Time/Space Mage in my sphere, so I'd already written the plot to account for mages; I was OK on that front). I said: 'If you want an 'in,' work with these guys. You're a PI, it's doable, but it's on you to work it out with the other PCs.'

Yes, I should have said no. But I figured ok, I'm not just a player ST. I'm a Staffer. I should give this guy a chance and try to help him out, but he's asking me the day of the scene about joining in, so I can't adjust a lot, but I'll give him a chance and there will be hooks. It's happening on the street, so it'll be easy to walk up. The business owner could hire him (the guy sort of handed him his card and brushed off the NPC overall... )... etc etc.

First round in:
OOC: Guy asks, "What's going on?"
Everyone else, OOC: "Uh, did you read the set pose?"
OOC: Guy says, "Oh I don't like reading those."

Continually, throughout the scene, this guy ignores my ST poses, then throws a fit when he's corrected. When the Law guys (the cops) take IC control of the scene and the PI waltzes up to them and goes 'Hey, you should give me the case' and one goes 'Well, give us your card and we'll call you if we need a consultant' (logical reply to a PI) he begins having an OOC tantrum.

One of the guys actually tried sitting down with him afterwards for a good half hour to explain why cops and PIs don't always get along and why his OOC behavior (not reading the ST poses, arguing with everyone, etc.) was problematic and all this guy did was continue to whine, complain, and have a general fit over how unfair it was that the scene wasn't adjusted and made to fit 'just for' him.

These, Fara, I think are the types of people Apos is referencing. The ones that are just overwhelmingly negative. This guy would have ruined me for STing for a while if the other guys didn't support me in return.

[faraday]

@auspice said in Encouraging Proactive Players:

These, Fara, I think are the types of people Apos is referencing. The ones that are just overwhelmingly negative.

I think it's just a question of where you see the line. As I mentioned, people who are disruptive are a problem, and that guy would clearly fall into the obnoxiously-disruptive category. But @Apos and @Ganymede both have mentioned a stricter line against public criticism about the game or PRPs. That's their prerogative of course. I just disagree.

[Arkandel]

@auspice One of the reasons I don't like to staff as a plot-runner but I run PrPs is the increased liberty to say 'no'. People get testy and presumptuous about their 'right' to be in a scene if staff runs it, and frankly... fuck that noise.

[phatdenny]

I think both sides on the Aspirations system debate make decent points. For instance, it can quickly turn into a chore depending on the type of character people want to play and has plenty of opportunity for abuse.

That being said, once in a blue moon I do manage to make use of it and go 'hey this is what I'm trying to do'. It's good for characters who are very active and constantly involving themselves in new things. It's shit for characters with one general goal in mind. I know the long term vs. short-term aspirations is supposed to remedy this somewhat, but I don't think it does a particularly good job.

[Lisse24]

@phatdenny said in Encouraging Proactive Players:

I think both sides on the Aspirations system debate make decent points. For instance, it can quickly turn into a chore depending on the type of character people want to play and has plenty of opportunity for abuse.

That being said, once in a blue moon I do manage to make use of it and go 'hey this is what I'm trying to do'. It's good for characters who are very active and constantly involving themselves in new things. It's shit for characters with one general goal in mind. I know the long term vs. short-term aspirations is supposed to remedy this somewhat, but I don't think it does a particularly good job.

Yeah, it's not a perfect system, but I really like what it's trying to do, and I think it's the start of a really good system for awarding XP and helping characters find RP based on IC goals, which I like.

Of course, I'm also sitting on a char whose aspirations I haven't changed since chargen, despite her having accomplished them.

[Kanye Qwest]

@faraday I definitely don't agree. If you want to 'vent', whine, and complain, do it to your friends. They are the people who know you aren't usually like that and you're just being a person (which yes, everyone is and does). Don't whine on channels about other people getting things. Don't whine publicly about people not loving your char or not responding to you fast enough. That isn't just a player being human, that's a player being a negative brat.

And if you let that shit fly, your environment becomes INUNDATED with it. Everyone should be free to whine and snark and complain /sometimes/, right? Wrong. Wrong, or the whining and complaining will overwhelm the atmosphere.

[Arkandel]

@kanye-qwest said in Encouraging Proactive Players:

If you want to 'vent', whine, and complain, do it to your friends.

Nothing wrong with venting on a public venue unless you're overdoing it or you're being a jerk. Anyone can go "OMG screw Mondays... amirite?" on the public channel. It's fixating on your issues for half an hour afterwards that's a problem.

Don't whine on channels about other people getting things.

In my experience that's typically a way to apply pressure. They aren't really whining, they're asking for more stuff for themselves but over a venue they believe gives them deniability ("I wasn't really saying Bob didn't deserve that sword! I'm just chatting, hah-hah.")

Don't whine publicly about people not loving your char or not responding to you fast enough. That isn't just a player being human, that's a player being a negative brat.

Yeah, I got nothing here. I'd also add public boasting about how awesome your character is and how much you love them and how great RP is over and over again because... come on.

And if you let that shit fly, your environment becomes INUNDATED with it. Everyone should be free to whine and snark and complain /sometimes/, right? Wrong. Wrong, or the whining and complaining will overwhelm the atmosphere.

IMHO within measure there are no issue letting some air out. The problem is when things get out of hand because because won't STFU about it, either in the short or even the long term. No one wants to deal with a chronic whiner.

[Ganymede]

@kanye-qwest said in Encouraging Proactive Players:

I definitely don't agree. If you want to 'vent', whine, and complain, do it to your friends.

To be fair, there may be a handful of people out there who do not have any friends, like Arkandel.

[Kanye Qwest]

@ganymede True, but - A. not my problem, and B. whining and complaining is not a good way to MAKE them.

[Ganymede]

@kanye-qwest said in Encouraging Proactive Players:

True, but - A. not my problem, and B. whining and complaining is not a good way to MAKE them.

Well, aren't we setting up a jolly Catch-22 now, eh?

[Arkandel]

@ganymede said in Encouraging Proactive Players:

@kanye-qwest said in Encouraging Proactive Players:

I definitely don't agree. If you want to 'vent', whine, and complain, do it to your friends.

To be fair, there may be a handful of people out there who do not have any friends, like Arkandel.

What I lack in friends I make up in uh, er, other stuff.

<cries into his work mug>

[mietze]

@arkandel you offer benefits without friends?