Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.

[RnMissionRun]

@faraday said in Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.:

But if that's the case, then let's stop pretending this is a moderated forum. We have admins, not mods. Accept the reality that it's WORA 2.0 - sink-or-swim, (almost) no holds barred - and continue to deal with the consequences. Either someone will eventually create an IGU2.0 that is moderated, or we'll all just accept what we got and not have to have dozens of pages arguing about how different "factions" within the board would like it to be.

Faraday nailed it. Let's stop pretending that this place is in any way a positive influence on MUs and call it what it really is, WORA 2.0. It's obvious by now that no matter how often this topic comes up, nothing is ever going to change here. Those of us looking to discuss MUs in a constructive way will just have to learn to deal, or find another venue.

P.S. I voted Neutral, because I generally approve of Auspice and Ganymede, but not the other two.

[Auspice]

@rnmissionrun said in Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.:

but not the other two.

who is this mysterious 4th admin.

we have a ghost in our midst. (and not @Ghost)

SOMEONE HAS KEPT A SECRET FROM ME

[Arkandel]

@sunny said in Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.:

I'm tired of the way that I've been treated by both the mods and some key vocal posters. I'm not wanted here and I'm well aware of this fact (which should make it easier to just walk, but it doesn't).

I don't think there is anyone on the forum that I don't want to be around. It certainly isn't you.

Just because we've disagreed it doesn't mean you're unwanted. What good is MSB if it's an echo chamber?

[Lotherio]

@arkandel said in Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.:

"Your opinion is stupid" versus "You are stupid"

Personal or not, neither is constructive. And perhaps a slipper slope, but allowing either implies any criticism is welcome. If one can call opinions stupid, then anything can be called stupid and its just a small step to personal. Half the time around here, and only my opinion, most cries of stupid about something not personal seems straw man for some other personal reason that comes out after 3 pages of dogpiling and popcorn gifs.

[Sunny]

@arkandel said in Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.:

@sunny said in Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.:

I'm tired of the way that I've been treated by both the mods and some key vocal posters. I'm not wanted here and I'm well aware of this fact (which should make it easier to just walk, but it doesn't).

I don't think there is anyone on the forum that I don't want to be around. It certainly isn't you.

Just because we've disagreed it doesn't mean you're unwanted. What good is MSB if it's an echo chamber?

Man, actions speak louder than words. It's not just my imagination, either. Even so -- if that IS the case -- I absolutely FEEL unwelcome because of the inconsistent enforcement of the rules. I would LOVE heavier moderation, even knowing I'm going to get smacked on the nose. Because I am. I get super snarky, and I'm sure I'd forget on occasion. Except I have zero faith that it would be consistently enforced, so the heavier moderation would smack me in the nose, while the people who are actively being mean to me...la la la, continue on their way.

I am one of the people that feels the way that @Ganymede mentioned: it is OK to heap BS in my direction, I am an acceptable punching bag, and for good fun the mods like to join in sometimes. Because they have. And it's NOT fun to realize that the people that are your recourse for being able to participate in the community are among the people that are handing out torches.

[Rucket]

@auspice said in Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.:

who is this mysterious 4th admin.

[Arkandel]

@sunny said in Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.:

Because I am. I get super snarky, and I'm sure I'd forget on occasion. Except I have zero faith that it would be consistently enforced, so the heavier moderation would smack me in the nose, while the people who are actively being mean to me...la la la, continue on their way.

Here's my point of view: You feel like this, and so do the people you think are just happily going on their way. Everyone feels singled out when it's their turn.

The line between consistent enforcement and perceiving that enforcement is more unfair to (generic) you than the others is pretty thin.

It's like sports, where players saying that referees should play it 50/50 means they should play it 90/10. It's a human trait; if you ask Tim Duncan he never commited a foul in his career.

Or to rephrase it; it's not my intention to discriminate. I have no incentive to fake playing favorites.

[Kanye Qwest]

@sunny said in Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.:

The only reason I'm here is because I care about some of you people and the relationships I've built in my ridiculous number of years in the hobby. I read some of the threads out of lingering interest in the topics, but I am working towards getting rid of my emotional investment -- in this board and in the hobby as a whole. I'm tired of the way that I've been treated by both the mods and some key vocal posters. I'm not wanted here and I'm well aware of this fact

Why in the world would you let this stop you? I'm probably not wanted anywhere and I don't give a fuck. Live your life, baby squirrel.

My health is improving to the point where I could probably come back to the hobby without losing my tiny little mind again,

YAY

[Doozer]

@rucket I approve.

Also

@kanye-qwest said in Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.:

@sunny said in Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.:

stuff

Why in the world would you let this stop you? I'm probably not wanted anywhere and I don't give a fuck. Live your life, baby squirrel.

[Auspice]

@arkandel said in Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.:

@sunny said in Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.:

Because I am. I get super snarky, and I'm sure I'd forget on occasion. Except I have zero faith that it would be consistently enforced, so the heavier moderation would smack me in the nose, while the people who are actively being mean to me...la la la, continue on their way.

Here's my point of view: You feel like this, and so do the people you think are just happily going on their way. Everyone feels singled out when it's their turn.

The line between consistent enforcement and perceiving that enforcement is more unfair to (generic) you than the others is pretty thin.

It's like sports, where players saying that referees should play it 50/50 means they should play it 90/10. It's a human trait; if you ask Tim Duncan he never commited a foul in his career.

Or to rephrase it; it's not my intention to discriminate. I have no incentive to fake playing favorites.

He's not on MSB, but one of my best friends could tell you that a couple weeks ago I chewed his ass out for being one of those people who made plans to RP in a +event with me and then tried to back out with a bullshit excuse. He claimed "something came up" IRL, forgetting he had Discord setup to show what he was playing on Steam.

I called him out. Not in a petulant way, but in a: we signed up for this a week ago, you knew it was coming, and our schedule is more flexible than the other two people involved. This is the best night for them. I know you're just playing a game or did you forget Discord shows it?

I could have just sulked. I could have made an excuse for him on the game and just tried to reschedule (since best friend), but instead I called him to task. He apologized, joined the scene, and we had a great time.

I share this because contrary to what it may seem, I am more than capable of playing fair. But as @Arkandel points out... Perception is a thing. There's also the scale of severity. Something that upsets you may not hit the scale of what needs to be moderated, even if you're upset by it. Thus it seems like "more gets through."

For example? Hog Pit is just about anything goes. Moderators aren't going to fight your battles for you in there. You attack Bob. Bob attacks you tenfold. I'm not going to come to your defense. But if you attack Bob in Mildly Constructive, I'm going to say something.

And that can be perceived as "hey no fair! Auspice didn't defend me when Bob attacked me the other day!"

This is where I feel the Hog Pit is harmful. When emotions are involved, we can forget where certain things occurred. The emotional center is not the logic center. It's just a big squishy ball of feels.

(Which, to speak, I do feel a touch offended, @faraday, that you say the whole team supports the existence of the Pit. I'm on record that I don't. But it's not my call alone to end or limit it.)

[Sunny]

@arkandel said in Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.:

@sunny said in Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.:

Because I am. I get super snarky, and I'm sure I'd forget on occasion. Except I have zero faith that it would be consistently enforced, so the heavier moderation would smack me in the nose, while the people who are actively being mean to me...la la la, continue on their way.

Here's my point of view: You feel like this, and so do the people you think are just happily going on their way. Everyone feels singled out when it's their turn.

The line between consistent enforcement and perceiving that enforcement is more unfair to (generic) you than the others is pretty thin.

It's like sports, where players saying that referees should play it 50/50 means they should play it 90/10. It's a human trait; if you ask Tim Duncan he never commited a foul in his career.

Or to rephrase it; it's not my intention to discriminate. I have no incentive to fake playing favorites.

I am well aware of people and the tendencies involved just from them being people. It has been independently commented on more than once, on occasion from someone I wasn't even talking to at the time (somebody going out of their way to communicate their sympathy/empathy to me over something, as a conversation opener).

Just because people have a tendency to assume bias and just because enforcement does tend to seem uneven doesn't mean that un-evenness of said enforcement can't happen. This is not in my head or something that I have made up or imagined.

If you genuinely do give a damn about how I feel about this, maybe stop dismissing me out of hand and consider why I might actually feel this way.

[Ganymede]

@derp said in Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.:

It's also not particularly helpful, when people are trying to make a genuine appeal for practical and reasonable change, for one of the admins in question to treat the topic so flippantly.

Arkandel and Auspice can probably attest to the fact that I'm taking all of this very seriously, but what you point out as being flippant helps illustrate the point below.

@Ganymede, if you want a direct example of how differently you are treated than others are here, reflect for a moment on how @Auspice was treated in the previous discussion about administration on the forums when she made a similar remark. People practically demanded her head on a spike, that she be removed from the modcorps, etc.

And frankly -- and this is aimed at surreality -- please don't presume that I don't appreciate, understand, or notice that a few people here get treated like garbage on the regular whereas I can pretty much act like Uncle Ruckus, and folks just look the other way. It does not always come out in my responses, but let me state, for the record, that I understand some people are treated differently. I pay attention to it, and, if you don't believe me, talk to Arkandel and Auspice. (Some of y'all may, in fact, remember that I jumped into a thread to point this out in the Hog Pit, and the general consensus was that I "get away" with behaviors that others get shit on for.)

Here is a short list of issues I'm perceiving as "primary" issues regarding consistency, which seems to be the overarching area of concern.

First, where there are multiple moderators there will be multiple interpretations as to each rule. Our justice system is rife with this problem. You can set up a rule that seems as plain as day, and two people may see it differently under a certain set of circumstances. If you want consistency, having a single "judge" of behavior means more consistency (presuming that such person rules the same way under the same circumstances), or at least ease in pointing out inconsistency.

Second, even presuming a perfect rule to determine whether behavior is acceptable or not, the next issue is the result. What punishment is fair? What punishment is unfair? What degrees of separation exist between a simple, private warning and a permanent ban? And what circumstances or considerations should be made when determining which degree of punishment is appropriate?

Finally, if a person thinks the punishment is unfair, where do they go to seek a reversal or justice for such an action? Absent a ban, the forum itself is a pretty good place to protest, and it is all too tempting to do it ... and maybe get back into hot water.

Right now, the three of us work fairly independently, but confer together before and after decisions and actions, as needed. In a way, this is good because that means three sets of eyes potentially monitoring the forum. But the membership has reacted differently to decisions depending on who makes them, and I believe this has had an effect on how we do things.

[Lithium]

@sunny said in Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.:

I am one of the people that feels the way that @Ganymede mentioned: it is OK to heap BS in my direction, I am an acceptable punching bag, and for good fun the mods like to join in sometimes. Because they have. And it's NOT fun to realize that the people that are your recourse for being able to participate in the community are among the people that are handing out torches.

You and me both.

[faraday]

@auspice said in Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.:

(Which, to speak, I do feel a touch offended, @faraday, that you say the whole team supports the existence of the Pit. I'm on record that I don't. But it's not my call alone to end or limit it.)

Apologies. I meant the admin team collectively, not meaning to imply that it was unanimous. Ark had been pretty emphatic about there being absolutely no intention ever of taking away the Hog Pit. So I may still whine about it, but I consider it a fait accompli.

@ganymede said in Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.:

What degrees of separation exist between a simple, private warning and a permanent ban?

Certainly there are degrees, but in the case of a persistent public forum, I think that private warnings are a bad idea. If somebody on my game posted an inappropriate BBS post, I would make them edit it or take it down. Not doing so leaves the impression that the post is appropriate because it's still there and nobody's done or said anything about it. It's even more of a strong impression if I, the game admin, reply to said post, lending it even more credence and taking away any possible doubt of 'well maybe they didn't see it...'.

[Auspice]

@lithium said in Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.:

@sunny said in Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.:

I am one of the people that feels the way that @Ganymede mentioned: it is OK to heap BS in my direction, I am an acceptable punching bag, and for good fun the mods like to join in sometimes. Because they have. And it's NOT fun to realize that the people that are your recourse for being able to participate in the community are among the people that are handing out torches.

You and me both.

In regards to this, I think there is viewed a "walking among the giants" perception here.

One thing Arkandel has pressed in his management method is that he wants us -- as a team -- to be able to participate in the forum as well as moderate and for it to not just become "a job." Just as Staff on a game are players, too, this is just a forum. And this is less than a Staff gig because, let's be real, this is a fucking forum about fucking games.

But a lot of you put us on pedestals. One of the topics at hand here is we barely moderate as it is, but you guys view us on a different scale even so.

One of my personal Staffing methods when I do Staff is that I try to hang out and engage with the players (many of you who played The 8th Sea witnessed this before I had to step down due to RL). I don't just sit in a Staff room all day. I don't just speak up to issue edicts from on high. I hang out, I engage. I put the Staff Hat on as necessary, but the fact of the matter is... Staffers are just another player who have taken on added responsibility.

We're (Staffers and moderators alike) just volunteers. No one's paying us to do this. We don't get any special benefits. Really, we get more shit than anything else (in mod-land, you too can spend a day of Cirno making puppet accounts called things like <YourNameHere>Nazi just to spam you with PMs threatening you!). The least we can do is get to play.

But the perception is an issue. Because people see us as "greater than." So if I step into a discussion and say "I disagree," it comes with more weight than if Jimmy over there says it. If I say "I think you're being ridiculous," it comes across as sharper.

I have no posse or clique. I have no fan club. There is no one that dog piles in my name. And while I have my days where I get sharp tongued, I do my best not to attack people unless I am feeling especially defensive because again: there's no one to defend me. I largely stand alone around here.

But the favor that I (we, perhaps) need to ask the rest of you is to be the adults I know you are and to remember that we're just players, too, and we want to be able to hang out and not just work all the time. As has been stated... this is effort. I can and will moderate on the regular. And oft-times I want to. But a) there will be mistakes (none of us are perfect and anyone who claims to be fails the test by the mere fact they made an account on this site), b) let me be "just a player" too and remember I'm just a volunteer. I get zero perks from this job. Gany won't even buy me whiskey.

[Lithium]

@auspice I was specifically talking to the point that some people get dogpiled much more often and more relentlessly than others who say the same things, as @Ganymede has said on multiple occasions, and I really appreciate that she did that.

However the whole walking with giants thing? It doesn't really come across that way to me at least, there are some personalities that just enjoy finding fault in things. They /will/ find a fault in a thing, and will harp, badger, belittle, dogpile, because ... whatever reason fits I guess.

I don't really know.

I am not exactly blameless in some of the dog piling, I know I certainly have done it before too.

I would love to be able to write my personal thoughts in a way that did not engender criticism, but I think a /lot/ of that has to do with the nature of this Forum. It can move /fast/ sometimes, and we want to get our two cents in, and so we don't edit ourselves or filter ourselves as well as we should.

[Auspice]

@lithium

Oh, some people do get dogpiled more often and more relentlessly. This is true.

People hold grudges. Sometimes for reasons we know. Sometimes for reasons we don't.

I've often had people hate me and when I finally learn why, it's for something I said/did months, years prior that I was wholly and completely unaware had upset them and they'd held onto it and used it as a reason to attack me for ages.

Me? I personally prefer just to move the fuck on. It's a lot less effort and my blood pressure appreciates it a helluva lot more.

[MagicGirl57]

@Sunny If you're so emotionally invested in this hobby and/or sensitive to the shit that's slung around on MSB (The Hog Pits specifically) to the point that you're internalizing the negativity and letting it mess with you IRL, then maybe you shouldn't engage in it or read it. That's not me saying that you're not wanted, but me suggesting you look after your mental & emotional well-being by keeping away from the toxic and awful things that might cause you distress until you can let it roll off your back and keep it moving.

[Sunny]

@calindra

I don't disagree with you. Thus, I quit mushing and scaled my involvement here way back. I'm on my way out, but as I said, I care a great deal for the community and the people in it, and it is difficult to cut the last tie. The question was asked about moderation here, so I gave my emotionally vulnerable and very personal reply that spoke to said question.

That people I care about being mean to me hurts my feelings is pretty normal. The trick is to stop caring about other folks more than they care for me. If you know the answer as to how to do that, please do share.

[Ganymede]

@calindra said in Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.:

That's not me saying that you're not wanted, but me suggesting you look after your mental & emotional well-being by keeping away from the toxic and awful things that might cause you distress until you can let it roll off your back and keep it moving.

Let me just interject to say this:

I think you're missing Sunny's point.

We all internalize our emotions in our own way. Telling adults what they ought to do isn't helpful. Your advice is sound, but it will not lead to the kind of change that Sunny is seeking. She doesn't want to leave MSB.

She's asking for support for her request that MSB's admins/mods be fair and responsive, which isn't an unreasonable thing to ask for.

In my experience, Sunny is anything but a wilting flower, but everyone has their tipping points.