Best Superhero System for a Mush?

[Mr.Johnson]

This is a question I should have honestly asked a long time ago but I figure there's no real harm asking it now.

What do you guys think in your opinion is the 'best' system for a superhero mush? In this specific case allow me to give the definition of 'best' I'm looking for.

A system with concrete rules to balance out powers so it's not nearly as much a free for all where Superman, or batman will always be the best at everything forever. A system that manages this while not being so complex as to require months or years to learn, yet not as simplistic as Fate.

Something that does all this while still capturing the feel of superheroes.

Does this system even exist?

If not what comes the closest?

Is it some big name system everyone's heard of or something a bit more obscure?

I sure as hell know I don't have the answer, that's why I'm asking you guys.

[fatefan]

You're going to want something that is...

1. Easy to run, scene-wise
2. Relatively uncomplicated for CG (and for playing in scenes)
3. Well-suited to reflect super-powered shenanigans

I mean, the username gives it away, but my personal vote's for Fate...

That said, I find myself continually returning to the Valiant Universe RPG (which itself feels a lot like the Marvel Heroic system) to see if it's possible to crank down some of the super-randomness in GM vs. player and in luck rolls.

[Bad at Lurking]

Icons and the dX system used in Silver Age Sentinels and The Authority come closest to that for me. I understand M&M has a lot of fans, but it is hobbled by the d20 heritage that honestly seems far too complex for a superhero game to me.

Though to be fair, the former does borrow a lot of concepts from Fate, which makes it less than ideal for MUs. As much as Aspects and such should be great for online play, they depend on a cooperative spirit among players. And good luck with that when running an open game.

[Mr.Johnson]

Yeah fate really doesn't work well for superhero mushes man. It's honestly just not that great a system overall when it comes to mushes. I mean close knit group of friends in a tabletop sure, but on a mush it's WAY too abuseable to the point of being about as useful as no system at all.

M&M is more complicated (In my opinion) then Wild Talents, at the very least on the same level of complicated, which wouldn't really get me anywhere fast. This is the problem with figuring out a good system to rein in players without having things be way too complicated.

[ZombieGenesis]

You'll get a lot of responses on this one I'm sure.

For me it's DC Heroes (the old Mayfair Games RPG). I think it scales amazingly well, has just enough crunch for those who want it but is easy enough to get into that anyone could pick it up pretty quickly.

I also really like Savage Worlds with the Super Powers Companion. I'd do a SW Hero game tomorrow if I thought people would buy into it.

[Mr.Johnson]

@zombiegenesis Oh man DC Heroes. I love that system so damn much. If I knew a proper way to automate more of it I'd use that system in a heartbeat. Years back I managed to buy a collection fo the rulebooks at auction along with a bunch of custom cards for it.

Love that system so much but if memories serves it used a strange 'success wheel' that was a bit difficult to wrap the noggin round, and even the game itself recommended against creating new heroes.

[ZombieGenesis]

I have a version coded up for TinyMUX. I used it for my old DC Universe game.

I keep hearing about the Valiant RPG from people, specifically it's rotating GM rules. Gonna download the quick start rules and give em a look.

[Thenomain]

@mr-johnson said in Best Superhero System for a Mush?:

A system with concrete rules to balance out powers so it's not nearly as much a free for all where Superman, or batman will always be the best at everything forever. A system that manages this while not being so complex as to require months or years to learn, yet not as simplistic as Fate.

Mutants & Masterminds is popular though I personally detest its hidden consequences and its complexity.

Mutant City Blues is pretty outstanding in giving superhero powers a cause/effect matrix, but you're probably also not looking for something based on Gumshoe. This would probably be better suited to being tweaked for a "The Bright" RPG.

Wild Talents, though the use of various "flavors" of dice can be pretty difficult to maintain. If I recall, it's the standard ORE with 4 extra types of dice. (My favorite: Is always a 10. Why would you not want this die? Rocket launcher to a knife fight, that's why.) Also pretty heavy in the philosophical end of the spectrum, but would almost certainly be the system I'd use if I wanted to play a Watchmen game.

I'll settle on Savage Worlds with @ZombieGenesis, mostly because of its GURPS-like nature and relative ease of understanding and implementation.

[Mr.Johnson]

@zombiegenesis Wait you ran that? If that's the one I'm thinking of I played The Comedian there. Love that system. I mean heck it wouldn't actually be that bad to switch over to from my current system.

@Thenomain Well I mean also the cost ratios get pretty high with the different dice. At the moment my personal game is using a modified Wild Talents with a 250 point build. Yeah it makes some things much harder to build but I like the 'Watchmen feel' that it gives the game. Just wish I was better at actually getting it to work in a way the every man can understand more quickly and easily.

I know I didn't make it clear, but I mostly started this for ideas on alternatives for my own games system while not constraining it to JUST that. So it can still go its own route and all and potentially still be a conversation in general of comparing merits of superhero systems.

[Misadventure]

@mr-johnson The first question really is: what do you want your players to DO with their time associated with this game?

The usual answer is something like "tell stories, use the system to get on the same page, use system and culture to create and resolve the stakes of a given story".

Almost ALL superhero games are just combat games. They will talk about other aspects and have IP associated with storytelling (comics, television shows and movies and novels), but it's rare that the system really makes anything other than fighting worth tracking.

Then you can ask why do you want people to be on equal footing? Are they spotlight hogs? Prone to fighting it out whenever they disagree on anything? Those aren't system solvable. Those are player problems.

Some games (Such as Smallville, City of Mists, Masks, and sorta almost Aberrant) try to dig into some sort of mechanics about being a hero/super/meta. Some (sentai games really) dig into teamwork as necessary, but that's almost always back to ... combat. And I will admit, if the system allows for superhuman intelligence, personal influence, and skill, really, how is anything but combat a challenge?

This may sound like it's totally undoable, but I'm really asking about what you want the players to be doing, and be concerned with, then think about what will help with that. I can tell you right now that every build a super game out there can be abused, and even just basic knowledge of what works will overwhelm players who don't know how the system works out.

I say this as someone who has played decades of Hero System, where you end up realizing that its ALL about what the GM and players agree to, not what the system says.

I personally like the freedom to design what I want to see at a competent level for a super being. Street level games really should be designed to allow granularity at humanish levels of tech, ability, and powers.

[Lithium]

For me it's a hacked version of hero games. Ditch Speed as a trait, set it up with automated power levels like you choose your balance: Offense, Defense, and Attack, and Dodge. Then you have it do the points for them. Like: How strong are you? And they choose an option.

It'd be complex as hell, but once you got it done, it'd make chargen a /breeze/ and the system is very well balanced.

[Misadventure]

In my eyes, Hero System (Champions) is meant to let you describe your character in lots of detail, so you can play the super that you want to play. The GM is then tasked with creating interesting mixes of foes that will challenge and entertain the players despite their potentially massive power level differences and weaknesses.

(Getting rid of Speed is always a good idea, that way everyone gets a turn, and no one has a multiplier to the value of their movement, attack and recovery powers.)

I would say that you would want to use the approach that Mutants & Masterminds does, where the power level of attacks and defenses are assumed to be set to some value, and that you can make a few tradeoffs to move those values up or down. However, M&M uses a d20 for resolution, and powers and defenses modifiy that result on a 1:1 basis, which makes those tradeoffs seem to be about even. Hero uses 3d6, and more D6, vs set numbers, so trade offs are very tricky to calculate, and due to the system details easy to mitigate the trade off.

Champions CAN be balanced. By hand, for every game.

[Lithium]

@misadventure I would say Champions /MUST/ be balanced, by hand, for every game. It's designed with that in mind, and why it can be used for every setting imaginable.

[Misadventure]

@lithium Yep, and I think that since it's for every character and every new power spend, it represents a task no one has time for. And because the players are mostly telling their own stories, they have to be able to emulate this sense of balance every time they make something new as well.

To give you an idea, I've had players act as guest GMs in a setting they had been playing in for years, with characters that had IC reason to know some of the behind the scenes truths, and they still directly went to exactly what wasn't a match. Multiply that by 30 players.

[Lithium]

@misadventure This is not as hard as you think. Template's can be made for different threat levels. It can all be categorized, it just takes work.

Once it is done though, it could be automated even.

I don't think it's impossible.

[The Sands]

Like a couple of other people have said, Champions gives you a lot of freedom. Unfortunately you pay for that freedom with some complexity. I personally am an enormous fan of the Hero Game system and don't mind the complexity but I know it isn't everyone's cup of tea. It is more than just a pure combat system as it has a nice selection of skills including certain skills that can be purchased multiple times with different 'modifiers' such as Languages, Sciences, and Professional Skills.

I'm not sure why people are saying to throw out speed. They seem to be saying that will mean everyone gets an action, but you're suppose to start most combats on Phase 12 when just about everyone has an action, so that doesn't quite make sense to me (I believe people with Speed of 1 don't get a Phase 12 action but Speed 1 is slower than your average innocent bystander).

A couple of observations:

• Look at ChampionsMush to get an idea how to try and make characters somewhat balanced with one another. I don't think their mechanism is perfect but when I played there (N.B.: this was probably 5 or 6 years ago so they may have changed some) it seemed to do a good job.

• Be aware that the system was built by a person who was a huge fan of Marvel comics and it will support that style best. Characters like the Hulk and Thor have massive Strength stats (like 75) but in relative terms they will work. Someone like Superman who can lift ships weighing hundreds of thousands of tons would have Strength of around 125-150 which will cause problems.

• Don't be afraid to veto/limit powers and modifiers. Duplication or Summoning when lots of duplicates are created (or creatures are summoned) will grind everything to a halt for everyone but the one player. If you're going to allow it you probably want a fairly low limit to how many duplicates can be created for reasons of playability (again, look through the rules for ChampionsMush since they've dealt with that). You might wish to restrict certain other powers for thematic reasons. Faster than Light Travel is not particularly unbalanced but you may not want a campaign where people can easily bop around the solar system. In a similar vein it isn't terribly expensive to purchase movement powers where a character can instantaneously accelerate to many times the speed of sound. If you want people to do that it's fine but don't feel obligated to allow everyone to do that (because as soon as one person does everyone else will buy it) just because the 'math works'.

[Misadventure]

1d6 RKA Autofire 0 End 1 Hex AoE No Range Mods Piercing X3 Continuing.

Players won't even want to sit through chargen. Atop that if anyone underestimates even one thing, they can be effectively powerless. And then there are all the "Don't Build This" examples.

Templates could work of course, but then you don't have all the flexibility, just a bunch of complex items that end up being the same.

How are special effects handled? Can my flame power light a candle? Use up the oxygen in a room? Boil water? Burn a costume/uniform? Can it be deflected with wind power? How about a flat surface? <--- This one is fun, every supers game doesn't really deal with it.

---

But really, what is it people want to DO with their supers? Are the powers important at all?

[Bobotron]

I am a fan of Cortex and the Marvel Heroic game. There's even a preview SRD for the new Cortex book that has some particulars on building superheroes using both that version and the Smallville version, and I think there's a lot of utility in combing the Cortex books for material, since I think the biggest complaint I've seen about MHR is no point-buy chargen?

[Bad at Lurking]

If you go with Hero or M&M, please build some generic template characters and just let the prospective players fill in the special effects/themes. Because honestly, sitting down for 5-10 hours to do math is kind of a day job and not a fun thing for a lot of players.

I can't speak for anybody else, but the more a MU* insists on difficulty and delay in getting on the grid, the less likely I am to invest that effort when most games just prove themselves to be a waste of that effort after a few hours playing.

[Mr.Johnson]

@bad-at-lurking Yeah I'm already planning on doing that even if I stick with Wild Talents. I mean heck I just started building a bunch of the usual suspects for application to make sure if people are interested they can just slap a background on them and go. This thread was more polling to see if people thought there was a simpler system to use.