Let's talk about TS.

[Carex]

@thatguythere said in Let's talk about TS.:

But the entire concept of jury trial is based on protecting the rights of the accused not on getting the public engaged.

It's adorable that you think this is true in spite of the overwhelming evidence of every day injustices like black men being put in prison for 25 years for having an ounce of weed while rich, white kids get away with killing people because of "affluenza."

The justice system is a pacifier to keep the plebs from revolting.
The fact that from time to time it brings about justice is at best a side effect.
The justice system is no more about justice than the Rules of Acquisition are about fair business practice.

[Prototart]

@thenomain said in Let's talk about TS.:

@prototart said in Let's talk about TS.:

@thenomain said in Let's talk about TS.:

Whenever I see this thread pop up in my unread list, this conversation goes on in my head:

Thread: Let's talk about TS.
Voice in my head: Please god no.

It's kind of sad that the voice in my head is more sensible than I am.

does your head voice sound at all like droopy dog btw

No. Danny DeVito.

[Carex]

@roz said in Let's talk about TS.:

You are incredibly wrong about how people would react to this

I accept that. I'm not denying it. I don't expect everyone to react as I would react to things. How boring life would be if we were all the same.

you're ignoring the many people talking about how off-put they would be.

I'm not ignoring it. I actually acknowledged it previously on the previous page:

"I agree. As I said before, it would make things more difficult. That was never in question. I just question if that added difficulty is worth the effort to increase the longevity of the engagement of the players.

The consensus seems to be that it wouldn't be worth it."

[Ganymede]

@carex said in Let's talk about TS.:

The justice system is a pacifier to keep the plebs from revolting.

Swap out "the plebs" with "rich oligarchs," and you're a little closer. Otherwise, you're way off.

The justice system is no more about justice than the Rules of Acquisition are about fair business practice.

Fair business practice has nothing to do with justice, and it was not designed to do so.

[Three-Eyed Crow]

@carex
I would be absolutely fascinated to know which games you've staffed on and what that experience has been like for your players.

[Arkandel]

But all that said, let's get back to the thread topic please. Or something somewhat resembling it.

[Roz]

@carex said in Let's talk about TS.:

@roz said in Let's talk about TS.:

you're ignoring the many people talking about how off-put they would be.

I'm not ignoring it. I actually acknowledged it previously on the previous page:

"I agree. As I said before, it would make things more difficult. That was never in question. I just question if that added difficulty is worth the effort to increase the longevity of the engagement of the players.

The consensus seems to be that it wouldn't be worth it."

No, that was your response to the idea that it would be too difficult and require too much effort. It's not a response to the fact that everyone on this thread is saying they would be actively horrified and off-put by seeing this policy on a game. That it would absolutely not increase the longevity of anything. That it wouldn't be worth the effort because it wouldn't at all work.

[Apos]

In trying to draw it back to topic, I think there's a startling lack of awareness (real or feigned), that being sex positive does not mean forcing expectations on anyone else, and that everyone determines their own comfort levels for what they want to deal with. Drawing something into a public spectacle would be disastrous for anyone that is not comfortable speaking about it, and is similar to pressuring someone in a way that's clearly not okay.

[Ganymede]

@apos said in Let's talk about TS.:

In trying to draw it back to topic, I think there's a startling lack of awareness (real or feigned), that being sex positive does not mean forcing expectations on anyone else, and that everyone determines their own comfort levels for what they want to deal with.

This is a summation of what I try to explain to my straight friends about going to a gay bar.

[surreality]

On the sex positive front, I think there's also another factor people run into a lot.

People engaging in a public spectacle (not my thing personally) tend to get judged, and hard, even when in a place where this could reasonably be expected to be happening, and there are very likely NPCs doing the same thing. They tend to get called all manner of horrible things that stray into the rape territory of unwelcome sexual advances, including 'forcing the participation of others' who are simply present and in no other way engaged with the activity.

That actually isn't sex positive. There's nothing 'live and let live' about that attitude at all. That's 'keep your shit I'm not into behind closed doors', regardless of the appropriateness (or lack thereof) for the play space in question.

People consensually flirting, groping, or grinding lewdly all over each other on a dance floor are 'a public spectacle'. It's also an entirely acceptable one for that RP environment, and someone claiming they're bad and should feel bad for 'forcing expectations on someone else' is simply bullshit. If it was a city council meeting? Sure, objections are absolutely reasonable.

'I don't like just seeing that, even if it's entirely expected and predictable in this grid space' is also forcing expectations in the form of unreasonable limitations on someone else, and is not cool.

[Arkandel]

@apos said in Let's talk about TS.:

In trying to draw it back to topic, I think there's a startling lack of awareness (real or feigned), that being sex positive does not mean forcing expectations on anyone else, and that everyone determines their own comfort levels for what they want to deal with. Drawing something into a public spectacle would be disastrous for anyone that is not comfortable speaking about it, and is similar to pressuring someone in a way that's clearly not okay.

Yes, that's a good universal standard - not drawing things into public spectacles - since it'd apply to most games. Other than Shangrila or a handful of sex-based games like that nothing good will come out of specifics of people's bedroom habits becoming factors in RP outside of closed rooms.

Specific games can impose their own policies although I fail to see how they can then enforce them other than by spying on people. You can ask that in a Harry Potter games everyone's pants need to stay on since most characters are underage but... you know. There should absolutely be consequences though if Rule 1 (keep it between the consenting adult players and their characters) is broken in that case.

Other than the two clausesabove above I don't really think any limitations need to be imposed on people. There's no freakin' shame in anything they do as long as it's agreeable by bothall direct participants. You want tentacles, you want chains, shapeshifting, cloned orgies? It's all good, these are just fictional relationships. They don't mean anything negative about the players involved any more than shooting people in the head in RP does.

Just keep it where it belongs and don't try to force or guilt other players into doing what you want them to.

[surreality]

@arkandel 'Where it belongs' and what qualifies is a huge area of disagreement, though.

Someone walking into a goth club or biker bar wearing a leash, for instance, has come up more than once (I can think of at least two or three instances of it off hand) as 'unacceptably forcing kinks on others' who are simply present.

This is a predictable thing to witness in those environments, full stop. It is RL, too. Slut-shaming these people and throwing rapey accusations at them about forced participation through just having to see it happen is by no definition 'sex positive'.

ETA: TR had more public strip clubs than clothing stores. People have an expectation of being allowed to go to any location on grid that isn't faction-locked or a private residence. Someone entering a strip club and claiming their limits are being violated because someone is posing being on stage and stripping is the one in the wrong, here, not the person engaging in RP involving sexual content in a space outside their private bedroom.

[Killer Klown]

Yeah. Funny story about that. When I first started dating my eventual-wife, and was more heavily into the goth scene, we once went out to a club with her wearing a leash that she had clipped to one of my belt loops.

Her mom saw us.
I said, without missing a beat, that she made a perfect fashion accessory.
Her mom thought it was hilariously adorable.

So, yeah. Not entirely on topic - but, leashes.

[Arkandel]

@surreality said in Let's talk about TS.:

@arkandel 'Where it belongs' and what qualifies is a huge area of disagreement, though.

But it shouldn't be, and staff ought to clarify it if it is.

For example maybe the entire public part of the grid in the game is where it doesn't belong (such as in the theoretical Harry Potter example I gave above), in which case players just can't do that at all.

In a game like TR they can simply institute a "if it's okay for RL it's appropriate in-game too". So a gothy club would be fine, but a bar would probably not be. And then they can clarify for supernatural social places such as Elysium.

But what I had in mind was more than simply what characters are wearing or how they act in public.

For instance let's say General You as staff don't want to have sex on your game for whatever reason - maybe it doesn't fit thematically or you simply don't want to have to deal with it. You ask players to keep it between themselves or else. Then I go and creep Jane's player out after we've already broken the rules like the crazy rebels we are by TSing; does it mean you screwed up because Jane is less likely to come to you since she did something she's not supposed to? Is there a compromise between you having the right to draw the line where you believe it should be to set limits in your own game, and your players being able to come to you even if they violated them because something even more serious might be taking place?

[surreality]

@arkandel said in Let's talk about TS.:

@surreality said in Let's talk about TS.:

@arkandel 'Where it belongs' and what qualifies is a huge area of disagreement, though.

But it shouldn't be, and staff ought to clarify it if it is.

I completely get your point, but after the constant drubbing and bashing I keep getting for suggesting I want to try to do anything like this, gods help anyone who does try anything but 'everywhere', 'nowhere', or 'use common sense! (and watch everyone completely disagree about what that is and endless needless and/or inappropriate bickering ensues)'.

[Prototart]

if batman wants to fuck nightwing i am 100% down and also would like to watch but prob that should not be happening at the sizzler is i think the point

[ShelBeast]

@prototart You're a bad person and you should feel bad.

[saosmash]

I think public groping in a nightclub is fine but at a Starbucks is eyeroll. Idk. I wish I were more surprised that this is a difficult line to draw in the sand.

[Arkandel]

@saosmash said in Let's talk about TS.:

I think public groping in a nightclub is fine but at a Starbucks is eyeroll. Idk. I wish I were more surprised that this is a difficult line to draw in the sand.

I don't want to answer for @surreality who's seen some shit, but I think the typical case is actually rooms like Elysium or 'seedy bars', and basically it becomes an unspoken challenge by people daring others to call their bluff about how edgy they are being.

[Aria]

@saosmash said in Let's talk about TS.:

I think public groping in a nightclub is fine but at a Starbucks is eyeroll. Idk. I wish I were more surprised that this is a difficult line to draw in the sand.

"Unless this a room that would only be accessible to grown-ass adults, keep it above the waist and over the clothes, thanks."

There. Done.

Does it cover everything? Well, no, not really. But I think it's general enough to get the idea across in a largely functional and effective way.