@deadculture said in MSB, SJW, and other acronyms:
In fact, they can subpoena MSB to break my anonymity, get my email
Just for the record I'll delete the VM, all backups and shut the forum down before we are forced to hand out personal information. Although I'm not sure how well that'd fly in Canada anyway.
@insomnia me too!
@deadculture said in MSB, SJW, and other acronyms:
I believe that speech should always be unmoderated and that social admonishment will take care of course correction, if necessary.
Coming from a place with actual limitations to what they call freedom of expression, down to and including the very necessary element for freedom of speech called anonymity, I find that calls to moderate and squelch 'undesired speech' in any way is like adding a ball and chain to one's own ankles.
Because the goalpost of what's acceptable will keep moving, the more you call for said moderation, until it's 1984 (see my forum avatar) and Big Brother is watching you for signs of Oldspeak.
I think there's a vast difference in moderating the ideas allowed in speech and moderating the type of speech that is allowed. I would never, ever be for the former. No matter how idiotic the idea, I think everyone benefits from having it aired. I think society is increasingly suffering from it's refusal to do the latter.
I think in order for discourse to be really free, in order for everyone to have the same chance of getting their ideas heard (although not agreed with), then you have to limit personal attacks, the spreading of false information, and the use of purposefully inflammatory language. How this applies to MSB, I don't know, but I do know that people need to free themselves of the illusion that unmoderated speech equals free speech.
Additionally, I'm not for blacklisting certain words. As another said, words are words. They in and of themselves are (mainly) neutral. However, I do think it's reasonable to moderate the way in which words are used and when someone asks me to not use a certain word as a negative descriptor, it seems only basic decency to comply.
@lisse24 said in MSB, SJW, and other acronyms:
No matter how idiotic the idea, I think everyone benefits from having it aired.
I'd rephrase that this way: Blocking an idiotic idea from being aired does more harm than it would.
@arkandel said in MSB, SJW, and other acronyms:
It's up to the community to regulate itself, which I'm hoping we can do, but which also puts everyone at the relative mercy of cliques.
Haven't we proven time and time again that the community doesn't regulate itself? Freedom of speech means you can stand on the street corner shouting horrible stuff; it doesn't mean you can do so in my living room. The person in charge (whether that's the home owner, business owner or forum owner/s) has to decide what level of discourse they find acceptable, which in turn decides what kind of environment they're going to foster.
I think there's a vast difference in moderating the ideas allowed in speech and moderating the type of speech that is allowed. I would never, ever be for the former. No matter how idiotic the idea, I think everyone benefits from having it aired. I think society is increasingly suffering from it's refusal to do the latter.
Like I said, social admonishment will result in standards of compliance. Personal attacks, spreading of false information, inflammatory languages are all well listed in Schopenhauer's The Art of Controversy as being cheap and easy tactics to 'win' an argument. If you're discussing an idea, it would be best if you weren't trying to win the discussion, in my view.
How this applies to MSB, I don't know, but I do know that people need to free themselves of the illusion that unmoderated speech equals free speech.
I seldom see moderation of speech done in a way that's even-handed. You'll often lean one side or another, heavily so, and that will result in ideas being suppressed because they're undesirable to the majority. I haven't seen people here get banned for espousing controversial ideas or viewpoints to what's relevant to the community itself, as pertains to MUSHing or MUXing or what have you, so that's good.
That said, this is a privately owned server with a specific set of rules that govern the expected conduct of the participants. If that's not moderated speech, even if passively moderated (and enforced, given the repeated bans of a known troll), then what is it?
Additionally, I'm not for blacklisting certain words. As another said, words are words. They in and of themselves are (mainly) neutral. However, I do think it's reasonable to moderate the way in which words are used and when someone asks me to not use a certain word as a negative descriptor, it seems only basic decency to comply.
This is, as someone else pointed out in another thread, I think it was @Salty-Secrets, in fact, unevenly applied. 'Dick', 'dickhead', and a lot of other 'male-referring' words can be used and people won't blink once.
You throw a 'cunt' out there, it's armageddon again. And before someone tries to apply critical theory to my argument: please don't. You can't have it both ways. Either do it in the absolute or don't do it at all.
@faraday said in MSB, SJW, and other acronyms:
Haven't we proven time and time again that the community doesn't regulate itself?
I don't know that we have. I hope not.
Freedom of speech means you can stand on the street corner shouting horrible stuff; it doesn't mean you can do so in my living room. The person in charge (whether that's the home owner, business owner or forum owner/s) has to decide what level of discourse they find acceptable, which in turn decides what kind of environment they're going to foster.
I have no issues enforcing any rules or being yelled at by internet people. What I don't want is to make this forum unwelcoming to anyone who doesn't share my personal views. That's the reason the bar is set pretty damn low ("don't be a racist") and why I want the content here to be a reflection of our community, not its administrators.
I realize this is perhaps counter-intuitive in some ways as, for instance, as a game runner I would absolutely need to enforce my vision for the world, but as @Auspice pointed out earlier... MSB isn't a game.
@deadculture said in MSB, SJW, and other acronyms:
You throw a 'cunt' out there, it's armageddon again. And before someone tries to apply critical theory to my argument: please don't. You can't have it both ways. Either do it in the absolute or don't do it at all.
I think someone asked nicely if it could not be used. That's what you call armageddon? Need a safe space?
@kanye-qwest "Asked nicely"? That's how you describe the several pages of screaming and finger-pointing and accusations of sexism and racism that came up when Ghost called saosmash this word? No one in that thread asked anyone else anything nicely. "Nicely" is not a word that could be applied to dang near anything in that entire exchange, which sprawled on for several pages over a period of days.
There's a reason people groan and roll their eyes whenever the word appears, and it's not necessarily because they're wounded by its use or offended by it, it's that precious few people want to deal with another round of that.
Oh fucking well.
@surreality that is because it always turns into, "hey could you not use that word, I don't like it" and someone responds with "no, fuck you snow flake, I do what I want." Then is shocked when they are called an asshole.
some fucking idiot who people only like because he's good at taking credit for the work of everyone under him, just like every other fucking L&L headwiz.
@apos I think it's fair to be called an asshole and if the person isn't prepared to be addressed that way, maybe they should oblige the offended party. It depends on whether the person can dish it out and also take it, ultimately. Preferrably you want to keep channels of discourse open as opposed to shut down, but trolling is trolling and trolls only get their kicks when somebody else is upset.
@apos That's not remotely what happened. Not even close.
Oh fucking well.
@surreality said in MSB, SJW, and other acronyms:
@apos That's not remotely what happened. Not even close.
Thank you for linking that. It is illuminating on so many levels.
@surreality You're right, the initial response was more "What the hell?" and shock than it was "Hey could you not use that word, I don't like it." And then a lot of people, including Ghost as he would say later, including myself, got too angry about each side doubling down so that it spiraled. The overall reason it always spirals does still tend to come down to fighting over whether or not someone should be able to use the word if they want. Ghost and I had it out, both on that thread and over PMs, but you're the one who continually likes to allude to the group of bullies who harped on your friend but love to cheer on people abusing you. (Because, say, I was out of the house with a friend one time someone called you something honestly nasty, or then because, you know, you were already posting about how the latest usage would have everyone ignoring it just because it's you by the time I ever saw it, and it wasn't even getting thrown around as an insult, even if I don't like the word, and you were already laughing about it and not caring. Unlike Saosmash, who was shocked to be called the word as a clear and direct insult.) I'm honestly really exhausted at the repeated sort of gleeful vagueblogging about how awful and inconsistent I am. I know we're not each other's favorite people, but I don't think I tend to sideswipe in your direction with allusions outside of us speaking directing with each other on the forum. If I do, call me out, but it's exhausting feeling like you're counting down for me to perform properly. Ghost was acting like an asshole on that thread, I was acting like an asshole on that thread, other people probably also. Definitely plenty of folks admitted as such. I reread how it started, but I didn't reread the whole terrible spiral. Can you maybe just stop holding onto this so tightly? That's how it least how it feels to me.
But, for the record, I think @Kanye-Qwest was referring to the most recent incident, wherein @Seraphim73 did ask pretty politely for folks to maybe find a different word. Way more politely than I did, certainly! I don't think we started at armageddon level on that thread a year ago, though; both sides had to build up to it. With -- snark manure. Or -- some other terrible metaphor. I'm out. I'm out of words. 
I ran out.
@haven The whole thing was a disgusting mess on all sides, top to bottom. It really is. That is what no one wants to revisit.
Oh fucking well.
I was talking about the most recent thread where this happened. Not the entire history of the MSB.
The issue with any discussion in the same place is that each new instance is not really new. People who have dug in already will come out as much reacting to what has been said previous as much as they are to what is being said now.
@kanye-qwest I was not referring to the specific incidence you're mentioning.
As for safe spaces: I'm already safe. This is a pretty comfy thread. Thanks for the offer, though.
@surreality said in MSB, SJW, and other acronyms:
@haven The whole thing was a disgusting mess on all sides, top to bottom. It really is. That is what no one wants to revisit.
I got dressed down for using the c-word (which I use a lot) and I took it in stride because at the end of the day, it's not a sweet word.
A couple posts down in that link, the holier than thou darling who told me to be kind in the Hog Pit was referencing cunt-cracks. 
I love this community. You never fail me.
@roz I agree on the recent thing. Problem is, the previous explosion is still something that happened. Everyone was acting like an asshole in that conversation and I include myself.
It, unfortunately, does cause real concern re: 'the people with the big crowd behind them will scream at everyone when some perceived wrong is done to them, but there's silence when it's aimed at someone else'. It makes it appear that it's less about the issue, and more about the target, particularly when the same group of targets spawns sprawling pages of outrage over offenses done to them that are simultaneously being done to others that are met with silence (or sometimes worse).
In all seriousness? There are very few people on this forum -- whether I get along with them or not -- that I genuinely think poorly of. There are a lot of people, and this absolutely includes people I consider very good friends, who make me want to roll my eyes right out of my skull on a regular basis for some reason or another.
@deadculture said in MSB, SJW, and other acronyms:
In fact, they can subpoena MSB to break my anonymity, get my email
Just for the record I'll delete the VM, all backups and shut the forum down before we are forced to hand out personal information. Although I'm not sure how well that'd fly in Canada anyway.
