Constructive (keyword) Criticism of Arx Systems

[Auspice]

@sparks said in Constructive (keyword) Criticism of Arx Systems:

@groth said in Constructive (keyword) Criticism of Arx Systems:

@saosmash said in Constructive (keyword) Criticism of Arx Systems:

People definitely know that modeling exists, though. This is a reduction in numbers from people using the command before.

Before people could run the command in the privacy of their own homes couldn't they? It's a pretty big ask for most people to have to be at a big event to run a command.

I do think the intention of making it so people were modeling actual outfits (not just privately modeling things named "-" or "shirt" or "for model" that were then immediately recycled) by making you model in front of others kind of backfired in ways we didn't intend; seeing the use of modeling go down (even though the rewards are potentially higher) suggests people don't like the idea of public scenes being required.

So I'm probably going to back out the public aspect of modeling as part of the prestige changes I'm working on.

As Apos suggests, though, we're still going to want to come up with some kind of public fashion thing so that people can engage with the system in public, and some way to incentivize real outfits over throwaway. Ideas are being tossed around by staff, but they still need to "gel" a bit more before I think they can be detailed here.

What if the item has to have been worn for X number of days first? To represent it having been seen by a certain number of people?

That way they don't have to be in a public (aka big and overwhelming) scene to represent it being witnessed in public, but it will represent that 'being in public' aspect.

Then if someone is wandering around on grid with 'for model' on their person, they will get appropriately teased.

ETA: Then you could someday consider some sort of gossip add-on where NPCs might comment: 'I saw JimmyJoBob walking through the market wearing <high prestige modeled item> the other day.' for rooms they passed through while wearing the item during the days leading up to when they tripped the model code.

Then they really don't wanna name it some stupid throwaway name. No one wants to be remembered for wearing 'bootz 4 da model code.'

[Three-Eyed Crow]

@apos
Whenever I've seen staff talk about their intentions behind a system, you guys do seem to be putting these things out with the hope they'll foster rp/story rather than ooc casino grinding. I appreciate that and it's what makes me continue to engage with the game, even though I'm a player who prefers more lightly-coded environments. I am super curious how domain is going to be balanced/what steps you guys have in mind to keep it from being a deep dive into accounting for any minister position, but it shall be what it shall be.

[Groth]

@apos said in Constructive (keyword) Criticism of Arx Systems:

Yeah exactly, that's what I was getting at in my post. That the non-formula factors are much more significant than the formulas and ease of use is why we'll revamp it and not the astronomical differences in prestige so much.

I agree. What's always going to be the most significant is the ease of use and how it 'feels' to use the system. That's why most suggestions I make on the github are usability improvements. Astronomical differences in numbers become part of the feel however, it shouldn't have come as a surprise when people felt discouraged over their investments into donations/largesse when they became a drop in the ocean that is modeling prestige.

It also shouldn't surprise anyone when my character with 0's in all social skills opts to not run the modeling command because it would net nothing, which is about as well as it would go if someone with 0's in all combats tries to wrestle a bear

My concerns about AP trades ever coming back are twofold.

1. AP trades incentivize piling AP on the most efficient character in the game to make them even more efficient.
2. When you trade away your AP, you trade away your characters agency. It makes no difference if the AP comes from Alice, Bob or Charlie, it has the exact same effect either way and those characters are no longer spending AP on doing their own thing, whatever that might be.

[Apos]

@three-eyed-crow said in Constructive (keyword) Criticism of Arx Systems:

@apos
Whenever I've seen staff talk about their intentions behind a system, you guys do seem to be putting these things out with the hope they'll foster rp/story rather than ooc casino grinding. I appreciate that and it's what makes me continue to engage with the game, even though I'm a player who prefers more lightly-coded environments. I am super curious how domain is going to be balanced/what steps you guys have in mind to keep it from being a deep dive into accounting for any minister position, but it shall be what it shall be.

I can speak in very general terms about this, with nothing set in stone, specifically about the kind of RP people enjoy so what the goals would be.

Now for some players, being able to build something and have a sense of ownership over what they are building and seeing lasting results reflected in the game world is the biggest draw for them. These will be players that sometimes care way, way, way more about seeing the results of their actions on their houses and domains than they would about their own characters, and some players like that would be super invested even in a relatively simple coderun (like much the same players that get excited about work/invest). Being able to conquer things in an automated way and expand domains would be a huge appeal for a lot of players.

For others, it's more the feeling of customization, like people go nuts about talking about the types of materials offered in their domain and tradegoods, and what makes them special, and being able to build a new school or training facility or port or pilgrimage place or whatever in their domain, even if there's no coded effect, is a really big deal. And any kind of coded effect just amplifies that appeal.

Now for the biggest group, and the ones that I think are left most hungry at the moment by as it stands since it's something we don't offer, are being able to tell stories and being able to RP about consequence. it just is not interesting to people to have Nameless Vassal #1 and Nameless Vassal #2 paying taxes week after week, with a clearly mechanical, automated way. Seeing the effects of their actions, good or bad, which then has an impact on others and creating opportunities or crises that turn into Major Things is a huge appeal and what many people mean when they talk about politics in games, and needing to maneuver the many different divergent and overlapping goals of a ton of different factions. This also is the most dangerous one if it's implemented poorly, since it can antagonize people or make them unbelievably stressed, but also the one that would be far and away the most rewarding and offer people the largest possibility to tell stories and create large scale organic reactions from their own actions.

There's overlap in the different groups but it's a lot of different things to balance, since sudden crises can really frustrate the people that just enjoy seeing a number go up in a domain, while complete stability can squeeze out the potential to create story.

[Sunny]

How about if you junk a dress, you can make another dress from it, but it becomes junked silk instead of new silk and it can't be used for model clothes, just wearing clothes. Or just take junk out. Like that whole portion of things is why the working parts have to be messed with, soooo.

[Jeshin]

TLDR - I think runs of a command are misleading in terms of what engagement really is. Some commands are the culmination of RP, choices, and other command runs and even though there are less model coderuns doesn't mean the engagement to reach that coderun was not high.

Per engagement

Praise is something everyone has and despite the # it still sends a little message you praised them and you can leave a message. It's a low cost way (1 ap) to show your support, favor, encouragement, whatever to someone. My praises regularly produce 10 per and I still use them every week because of the 'feel goods' they give to the receiver.

Haggle is an underutilized and misunderstood system. I would also expect it to have less coderuns than praise/work because you need a resource to engage with it. +work and praise generate something. Haggle converts 1 resource into another and costs AP.

Modeling now requires groups to be efficient but beyond that I do not believe 1 coderun of modeling represents low engagement. A single coderun of modeling for even a single outfit could represent 3+ craft commands and a +event to attend or organic large scene to crash. If we're looking at higher end modelers it appears a lot of them involve crafters so for Sabella's cane that was haggles for materials, crafts for creation, probably RP scenes to discuss the design, possibly refines. Getting the money maybe Sabella has that kind of scratch laying around, maybe Josephine did it pro bono but I would ASSUME some +works were done for resources to sell off. Long story short I believe model coderuns represent more engagement than just 10 coderuns were done vs 100 haggles vs 1000 praises vs 10000 works.

+work makes the world go around. @actions use resources, investigations use resources, resources can be sold, econ can be used to get materials. I pay my proteges 30 writs a week now just because it allows me to on paper pay them more than my ducal lord stipend allows. Arguably I think +work was the best change but that low clout commoners get kind of shafted. It would be nice if you allowed commoners to use their patrons to assist their rolls which would remove the 'need' for the protege to be the clout provided. Now high clout patrons of all ranks can be sought out.

Example lets say Preston was protege'd to Edain. Well Edain wants to support the Faith he's the Oathlands High Lord so when Preston goes around seeking commitments of favors to help rebuild the templars why can't the fact he's Edain's protege help HIS work rolls?

[Groth]

@apos said in Constructive (keyword) Criticism of Arx Systems:

Now for the biggest group, and the ones that I think are left most hungry at the moment by as it stands since it's something we don't offer, are being able to tell stories and being able to RP about consequence. it just is not interesting to people to have Nameless Vassal #1 and Nameless Vassal #2 paying taxes week after week, with a clearly mechanical, automated way. Seeing the effects of their actions, good or bad, which then has an impact on others and creating opportunities or crises that turn into Major Things is a huge appeal and what many people mean when they talk about politics in games, and needing to maneuver the many different divergent and overlapping goals of a ton of different factions. This also is the most dangerous one if it's implemented poorly, since it can antagonize people or make them unbelievably stressed, but also the one that would be far and away the most rewarding and offer people the largest possibility to tell stories and create large scale organic reactions from their own actions.

I can tell you that if other games are anything to go by, the moment you add coded organisation level PvP with some actual rewards for winning, people will get ludicriously invested to the extent you shouldn't be surprised if white vans start driving up to the newbies offering candy in the hope of kidnapping them away for more manpower

It's something people really like, but it's also something that easily stresses people out as you say, so it's difficult.

[Sparks]

@sunny said in Constructive (keyword) Criticism of Arx Systems:

How about if you junk a dress, you can make another dress from it, but it becomes junked silk instead of new silk and it can't be used for model clothes, just wearing clothes.

This would require a not-insignificant reworking of part of the crafting system in a manner that kind of makes me cry (basically allowing multiple material types for a recipe and then having some sort of conditional tag based on what materials were used), and... well, I do want to get back to Shardhavens and magic eventually!

[Roz]

@sunny said in Constructive (keyword) Criticism of Arx Systems:

How about if you junk a dress, you can make another dress from it, but it becomes junked silk instead of new silk and it can't be used for model clothes, just wearing clothes. Or just take junk out. Like that whole portion of things is why the working parts have to be messed with, soooo.

I think staff stated at one point that their modeling and junking records didn't really indicate this was a real, recurring issue. People mostly bring it up as like "THIS IS A THING THAT YOU COULD DO" but tbh the returns are so low/hard to get that I don't think people are doing this regularly.

@jeshin said in Constructive (keyword) Criticism of Arx Systems:

It would be nice if you allowed commoners to use their patrons to assist their rolls which would remove the 'need' for the protege to be the clout provided. Now high clout patrons of all ranks can be sought out.

I actually agree that it'd be nice for proteges to be able to use their patrons to help with work rolls, especially because work represents going out into the world and getting stuff from people, and part of the thematic point of patronage is to open doors for people with less social power in the world.

[3543thrh67]

@auspice said in Constructive (keyword) Criticism of Arx Systems:

@sparks said in Constructive (keyword) Criticism of Arx Systems:

@groth said in Constructive (keyword) Criticism of Arx Systems:

@saosmash said in Constructive (keyword) Criticism of Arx Systems:

People definitely know that modeling exists, though. This is a reduction in numbers from people using the command before.

Before people could run the command in the privacy of their own homes couldn't they? It's a pretty big ask for most people to have to be at a big event to run a command.

I do think the intention of making it so people were modeling actual outfits (not just privately modeling things named "-" or "shirt" or "for model" that were then immediately recycled) by making you model in front of others kind of backfired in ways we didn't intend; seeing the use of modeling go down (even though the rewards are potentially higher) suggests people don't like the idea of public scenes being required.

So I'm probably going to back out the public aspect of modeling as part of the prestige changes I'm working on.

As Apos suggests, though, we're still going to want to come up with some kind of public fashion thing so that people can engage with the system in public, and some way to incentivize real outfits over throwaway. Ideas are being tossed around by staff, but they still need to "gel" a bit more before I think they can be detailed here.

What if the item has to have been worn for X number of days first? To represent it having been seen by a certain number of people?

That way they don't have to be in a public (aka big and overwhelming) scene to represent it being witnessed in public, but it will represent that 'being in public' aspect.

Then if someone is wandering around on grid with 'for model' on their person, they will get appropriately teased.

ETA: Then you could someday consider some sort of gossip add-on where NPCs might comment: 'I saw JimmyJoBob walking through the market wearing <high prestige modeled item> the other day.' for rooms they passed through while wearing the item during the days leading up to when they tripped the model code.

Then they really don't wanna name it some stupid throwaway name. No one wants to be remembered for wearing 'bootz 4 da model code.'

On this rather than having 'model' why not, instead, make people wearing it get increased prestige the longer they wear it. Like if PrincessA wears a wool dress for X period of time she gets X amount of prestige for it. Then the longer PrincessA wears it the prestige increases X amount each time. So, say she gets 50 the first leg of wearing it, 75 the next, etc.

There is also if X number of people from X number of Noble Houses are wearing a specific material it becomes 'fashionable' and thus it nets more prestige. Though, if they only wear X material clothing for X amount of time even if 20 nobles from 5 noble houses are wearing the material it is not as fashionable because it is 'last year's style'.

OR a combination of both these.

[Roz]

Lol, all I can think of with the idea of "have to wear it for a certain period of time" is that truly high-end fashionistas would never wear the same outfit multiple days in a row.

[Sunny]

I am confused as to what problem people are trying to solve.

[3543thrh67]

@roz Hahaha. I occasional play character's who think wearing the same outfit twice is a sin. I have one on a game where, even though it is similar in style, she never wears the same thing twice.

[Kanye Qwest]

we have a different solution in mind! but kind of want to save up prestige, etc changes into a batch so we aren't roped into spending a lot of time putting out OHNOES fires while other things are not in, yet.

[Jeshin]

@sunny

Staff are trying to solve engagement, feel bads, and time sink for staffers.

Players are trying to solve perceived exploits within the system, imbalances leading to lack of engagement or feel bads, and alternative methods to implement system which might achieve staff goals.

There is a link https://github.com/Arx-Game/arxcode/projects/2 which leads to the discussion of prestige changes, I think? So people are discussing prestige elements.

[Groth]

@sparks
Belatedly, if anyone isn't using haggling right now, I'd speculate it's one of two reasons.

1. They don't know that it was recently buffed to be really really strong even if they previously got bad results because of low prestige.
2. Their skill/stats are too low to benefit. It scales really sharply, for instance Stat 3, Skill 3 means you grab 150 resources at a time for about 50 profit margin. That works out to about 750 silver per AP compared to the 4,225 of 5/5 who can grab 370 at 115 margin.

I think it's mostly a knowledge issue though, or wanting to run a bunch of code in the market issue. The buy orders should have lowered the barrier of entry somewhat. I know my character isn't using haggling because I have no idea how to get a trainer so I can spend the xp to buy the skills so I can use haggling.

[Sunny]

@jeshin

But what problem does requiring a model to wear an outfit for a week solve? What is even the point? Like...why?

[Roz]

@sunny said in Constructive (keyword) Criticism of Arx Systems:

@jeshin

But what problem does requiring a model to wear an outfit for a week solve? What is even the point? Like...why?

Agree, I don't see that as either promoting RP or necessarily forcing a reduction of modeling stuff at home, because you could still just wear the same clothes without even RPing for days, etc. etc.

[Jeshin]

@sunny

I believe that specific suggestion is to reduce the exploit of create outfit, model outfit, dispose of outfit. Also staff have stated they want to stop such things as having an outfit of pieces that are - or a shirt or for model either in the sdesc or description (I assume). The solution is have clothing need to be worn for X amount of time before unlocking the option to model it. The other suggestion was to cause materials that were gained via junking to be flag/tagged differently.

While modeling then junking then reusing the material is possible apparently it isn't widely done.

[mietze]

Or people are using haggle even if they are not min/maxed (THE HORROR) because they can get mats cheaper which means people who say they want to buy stuff from them wont bitch so much about cost and they can still get some $$ for their time.

Not everyone thinks in terms of most efficient or just about number crunching. They just dont.