Constructive (keyword) Criticism of Arx Systems

[Meg]

Hey, this isn't in the Hogpit, so anything you discuss should be civil.

How about that prestige, eh?

[Jeshin]

I'd be super interested in how staff envisions AP sharing/transfer/selling to come back to the game. The majority of abusable and/or unbalanced loops are impossible to create without bringing in AP from off character so how they intend to add that back in would have a pretty significant impact on prestige and other systems like haggling (which no longer sources prestige as a primary factor).

[Groth]

The interconnection between work, prestige and haggling makes AP transfers lead to rather undesireable effecs.

If you can buy AP, then you can cost-effectively maintain high prestige since you can buy AP to generate thousands of resources which you pass to a haggler which buys AP to sell those massive resources for the silver/materials you need to maintain that high prestige. Or the haggler can cut out the middle man to just wash AP to silver. That could be shut down by making the hagglers and high prestige less strong, but then you're just shitting in the cereal of the people who arn't doing AP trading.

I think any sort of assist mechanic needs to be more purpose made and not straight up transfer of AP. In RFK it worked the other way around, the people at the top gave their minions tons of dice which made people pretty happy.

[Too Old For This]

@groth You're missing a key factor here. Haggle. I can Haggle maybe 300 resources at a go. If I push it. I cannot guarantee how much they will sell for. And there comes a point where any extra I am getting from that Haggle is not equaling out the amount of AP I have to spend to Haggle that for someone else. Why would I waste that much of my own AP for someone else's benefit?

[saosmash]

Haggle has already been delinked from prestige, hasn't it?

[Too Old For This]

@saosmash Yep! Its now weighted against charm, economics/streetwise, and haggle.

[Sparks]

@meg said in Constructive (keyword) Criticism of Arx Systems:

How about that prestige, eh?

There's a public Github project board for the planned prestige rework, which details the plan that we put together.

@jeshin said in Constructive (keyword) Criticism of Arx Systems:

I'd be super interested in how staff envisions AP sharing/transfer/selling to come back to the game.

The current thought is that it might work better with a differentiation between "your own AP" and "assisted AP", as separate pools. Then a lot of things would require using your own AP, so when you're out, you can't get someone to assist you for that thing, even if they could assist you for other things.

[mietze]

@too-old-for-this I think this may be a key thing that could be missed by people who dont use it regularly. I know you know this but for those that have never used it and might be envisioning a more straightforward item to money in the pocket:

It is not like the broker where you can sell/buy as many as you want in one go.

Sometimes you might get lucky and be able to sell all you want to sell in a large block but many times you will have to break it into 2-3 chunks. Rolling to see if you can find a buyer and if so how much costs 5 AP even if you never go further or if you fail your roll, which can indeed happen even if you have high stats.

Once you find out if you have found a seller/buyer and how many items they are willing to sell/buy (which may not be the full amount you asked for especially at higher quantities), you spend 5 more AP to roll to find out the cost of your deal. Even when you have high stats and especially when you are seeking to haggle high tier stuff, you may not find much of a deal. You can choose at that point to take the deal or walk away out 10 AP.

This happens every time.

[peasoupling]

I don't understand what's going on with AP selling and buying a lot of the time. I see what it's supposed to represent, but it ends up like a medieval gig economy and just way too abstract. I sold it a couple of times, but it was accompanied by RP, like, yeah, Leta is actually helping out at the clothing shop. Otherwise, what is she selling, even? A lot of transactions just don't seem to make sense if you stop to think about what AP is.

[Too Old For This]

@peasoupling AP is meant to be your time. Work and effort that you put into something. I always figured selling AP sorta like (to use an absolutely horrible example) the down on their luck guys standing outside of Home Depot and trying to pick up some handyman or construction work for the day. Just, you know, more civilized. You put up a notice, a 'sale' that you have some spare time and are willing to work for X amount of silver per three hour slot of your time over the next two weeks. Whoever 'buys' your time has you doing work for them. You might be taking dictation, you might be moving furniture, you might be helping organize a closet.. whatever works out. Some of the RP that can come from this is fun. But not all of it will be, so while I will send a messenger to someone thanking them for choosing my character to help with their projects, there won't always be a scene about it.

[Meg]

@sparks said in Constructive (keyword) Criticism of Arx Systems:

@meg said in Constructive (keyword) Criticism of Arx Systems:

How about that prestige, eh?

There's a public Github project board for the planned prestige rework, which details the plan that we put together.

I wasn't actually serious, I promise. Tho, thanks for the link! It will help. With other things.

[Groth]

@too-old-for-this
I'm not missing that at all. The limitation to how much you can liquidate is AP which currently sharply limits how much you can liquidate any given week.

With Haggle as it works right now, you should consistently grab a deal for between 220 and 490 resources which you can sell for 355 to 415 silver or buy for 135 to 195. What that means is that hagglers can, if they could buy AP, turn 20 AP into 35,000 to 137,000 silver.

[Too Old For This]

@groth I think you're relying far too much on theory and not enough on reality. I have never, ever been able to sell more than 300 resources in a single shot.

[Groth]

@too-old-for-this said in Constructive (keyword) Criticism of Arx Systems:

@groth I think you're relying far too much on theory and not enough on reality. I have never, ever been able to sell more than 300 resources in a single shot.

Do you actually have 5 perception and 5 Streetwise/Economics? Not having Stat 5 loses you about 40 resources and not having Skill 5 loses another 60. If you've never managed to grab more then 300, it sounds like you have neither.

[Too Old For This]

@groth Perception 4/Streetwise 5. 300 is about as high as I can consistently haggle at and still get a good deal. Pricewise, 375 seems to be my average.

[Groth]

@too-old-for-this said in Constructive (keyword) Criticism of Arx Systems:

@groth Perception 4/Streetwise 5. 300 is about as high as I can consistently haggle at and still get a good deal. Pricewise, 375 seems to be my average.

You should be grabbing between 200 and 460 with 330 being your average. There's no punishment for trying to grab too many resources at once besides the fact you won't get the bonus.

[Tempest]

@meg ur nail polish is gauche and your haircut looks like...oh wait, this isn't the hogpit

Uh.

What's the deal with haggle? Are nobles not supposed to do it, or what?

Why does a game like Arx not have more system guides?

Nobody really tells you how to /use/ any of the systems. Sure, they'll tell you "enter this command, and then do this, and you get X". Nobody is telling you 'oh yeah, you need to do x, y, and z, to actually get much out of doing this thing', even though most of the not-new players know that stuff.

I don't know if it's because the game is "competitive" or what, but people seem incredibly inclined towards keeping the 'tricks' they learn about the systems to themselves, and the only way to learn these things as a new player is "just go run face first into the wall 20 times until you figure it out".

[Groth]

@tempest said in Constructive (keyword) Criticism of Arx Systems:

@meg ur nail polish is gauche and your haircut looks like...oh wait, this isn't the hogpit

Uh.

What's the deal with haggle? Are nobles not supposed to do it, or what?

Why does a game like Arx not have more system guides?

Nobody really tells you how to /use/ any of the systems. Sure, they'll tell you "enter this command, and then do this, and you get X". Nobody is telling you 'oh yeah, you need to do x, y, and z, to actually get much out of doing this thing', even though most of the not-new players know that stuff.

I don't know if it's because the game is "competitive" or what, but people seem incredibly inclined towards keeping the 'tricks' they learn about the systems to themselves, and the only way to learn these things as a new player is "just go run face first into the wall 20 times until you figure it out".

It can be hard to maintain a guide when the system changes all the time. I don't think anyone is deliberately keeping things secret. I might compile information about the more esoteric systems later this week to put up on the unofficial wiki.

[Too Old For This]

@groth But that bonus is what helps me to get a better price on the amount.

[Tempest]

@groth said in Constructive (keyword) Criticism of Arx Systems:

I don't think anyone is deliberately keeping things secret.

You're not paranoid enough to be MUing, my friend.