Spirit Lake - Discussion

[Roz]

@saosmash said in Spirit Lake: An Original Modern Fantasy Game:

People who are expecting high magic or a high fantasy Arx alternative will be disappointed anyhow, since that isn't what it is.

Yeah. People expecting something akin to WoD are also going to be very disappointed. People calling it urban fantasy/horror are also wrong, because it's not urban? (It's a legitimately tiny town.) Or a horror game. It's very much not WoD. (Although there might be horror-themed plots, I imagine, it is absolutely not baked into the theme the way it is for WoD.) People who are expecting quick and powerful magic are probably gonna be disappointed, too.

But for the folks who have mentioned that this must mean the game will move too fast: I don't think this is going to be at all indicative of the pace of the game. It was only indicative of the pace of people showing up on the game (starting at 6am). There's nothing really about the shutting down of apps that's suggested to correlate with overall pace of story. It was just dealing with a rush.

[Rucket]

Yeah. I don't think the pace will be breakneck at all. Sure, RP will probably happen a lot, but actual spell development and character growth are going to be at a more measured pace just because of how this version of FS3 works. So it's going to take time for people to grow into their magical powers and stuff, which is great. It's not throwing people into the deep end all at once.

[Tinuviel]

@roz said in Spirit Lake: An Original Modern Fantasy Game:

People calling it urban fantasy/horror are also wrong, because it's not urban?

It doesn't have to be strictly urban to be of a similar enough flavour to urban fantasy.

@roz said in Spirit Lake: An Original Modern Fantasy Game:

it is absolutely not baked into the theme the way it is for WoD

Yeah, most WoD games don't tend to focus on the horror bit either.

[Coin]

@tinuviel said in Spirit Lake: An Original Modern Fantasy Game:

@roz said in Spirit Lake: An Original Modern Fantasy Game:

it is absolutely not baked into the theme the way it is for WoD

Yeah, most WoD games don't tend to focus on the horror bit either.

But it is baked into the WoD/CofD theme in a way that it is not in Spirit Lake.

For starts, no one is going to have a leg to stand on if they try that "it's the world of darkness not the world of sunshine and ponies" bullshit at Spirit Lake.

[Crow]

@tinuviel said in Spirit Lake: An Original Modern Fantasy Game:

@sunnyj It reads to me like it's low level Mage without the bullshit. Which... is what most people want out of Mage from what I've seen.

It will start that way at first, but in a year there will be spells closer to what you can do with Arete 4 or 5.

[Crow]

@coin said in Spirit Lake: An Original Modern Fantasy Game:

@tinuviel said in Spirit Lake: An Original Modern Fantasy Game:

@roz said in Spirit Lake: An Original Modern Fantasy Game:

it is absolutely not baked into the theme the way it is for WoD

Yeah, most WoD games don't tend to focus on the horror bit either.

But it is baked into the WoD/CofD theme in a way that it is not in Spirit Lake.

For starts, no one is going to have a leg to stand on if they try that "it's the world of darkness not the world of sunshine and ponies" bullshit at Spirit Lake.

Even in horror-light WoD games, there are things like the hopelessness of being a Neonate while there are Elders walking around. Or being and Elder and knowing that an Antediluvian could wake up at any moment and demolish an entire continent. This game does not have that element. There's no impending or immediate doom that could be set off by the crack of an egg shell that everyone is standing on.

[Coin]

@crow said in Spirit Lake: An Original Modern Fantasy Game:

@coin said in Spirit Lake: An Original Modern Fantasy Game:

@tinuviel said in Spirit Lake: An Original Modern Fantasy Game:

@roz said in Spirit Lake: An Original Modern Fantasy Game:

it is absolutely not baked into the theme the way it is for WoD

Yeah, most WoD games don't tend to focus on the horror bit either.

But it is baked into the WoD/CofD theme in a way that it is not in Spirit Lake.

For starts, no one is going to have a leg to stand on if they try that "it's the world of darkness not the world of sunshine and ponies" bullshit at Spirit Lake.

Even in horror-light WoD games, there are things like the hopelessness of being a Neonate while there are Elders walking around. Or being and Elder and knowing that an Antediluvian could wake up at any moment and demolish and entire continent. This game does not have that element. There's no impending or immediate doom that could be set off by the crack of an egg shell that everyone is standing on.

Yep.

It just seems a little more light-hearted, or at least not as committed to nihilism. It's a design choice and that's good.

[mietze]

Games have absolutely been overwhelmed and even damaged by the flood of apps when excitement peaks here or other word of mouth situations. Both in the front end work (dealing with the avalanche) and then dealing with the volume of the usual complaints (mushers can be like angry locusts) and then inevitably by the sudden holes when 80 percent of the influx flakes out or loses interest or never even makes one grid scene.

It is a known issue. If the staff are doing things to keep it manageable FOR THEMSELVES rather than chasing the needs/wants of the huge group most of whom who will not stay, that's a good thing for the game, even if it might inconvenience some players.

[mietze]

I am super interested in the game, and would totally app in at some later date should there be a die off of active players a few months from now (as I am 90 percent sure will happen). I do not like to get in on opening day on any game these days because of the surge/whining that it isnt what tons of players thought it would be/die off pattern that is standard for games endorsed by popular folks now, because it can be a game killer. I find the sweet spot is 6 months or more after a game opens if it is super popular.

[Lisse24]

So, I think the appeal of the game was:
1 - Modern Setting, which makes it feel very different from Arx and there aren't that many other modern games out there. The ones that have launched in the past year tend to be focused on horror themes, which is very niche, and then narrow that niche even more, with the exception of Calavaras which seems (from an outsiders perspective) to have a very broad theme with a sandboxy feel.
2 - Fantasy elements, even if Magic isn't a big thing now, it will be.
3 - A clear narrative arc, which made it easy for players to imagine characters for this world. More games need narrative arcs!
4 - Non-fiddly game play/theme. Yes, Arx is the big player out there right now, and it has a ton of meat in the mechanics department for people to dig into, but I think a lot of people were waiting for something more streamlined. Similar to WoD: Tons of meat themewise on those bones, but do players really want to dig through hard to read books just so they don't look like a clueless idiot in game?

To sum up, Spirit Lake has broad appeal without seeming flat at a time when people are looking for games with broad appeal. It also launched at a time when there were few similar alternatives, and nothing clearly on the horizon.

[GangOfDolls]

Yeah, when I use the term 'urban', I speaking more generally to that kind of genre than the setting. There are plenty of small town settings that still fit this bill - it's really more about modern setting, modern anachronisms, and modern concerns vs. lords, ladies, and flouncy dragon drama.

It's also the case that the last major WoD game opening turned out to be a giant turd and there's just no other alternatives at present that aren't fresh or hiiiiiighly problematic.

The application cap - which I think they announced in advance - turned out to be one of the few smart decisions the game owner made. San Francisco was an unfortunate train wreck because its owner is just kind of a spiteful, controlling jackwagon, who depending on who you ask may or may not be a thief as well. That kind of poison in the core of an otherwise promising premise is never going to really recover as long as the association remains. I think if other people were to run it, it might recover but I'm told that's likely never going to happen because the owner won't part with it (but won't run it either) so it lingers into a slow death.

I know Miami has been in forever development but as time moves on and the refrain of 'we're working to make sure everything is really set up before we open' gets fainter and fainter - it does appear momentum has been lost and that chances of it opening are uncertain and looking grim at best.

I have no idea what's going on with Reno-rebranding-to-Portland.

Even if this is WoD adjacent at best, there's a market for WoD and next door to it in resonate feeling in this community because of the theme and in spite of the dense and often bullshitty mechanics and poor prospects at this moment at time.

It's a great time to be offering something along those lines but the start up "capital" to get a game going requires time (people can find that), a place to set up (people can pay for that), and coders who can knit the backend systems together (this is often the hardest part to scale). Because there are so few coders in this community so they have the ability to be choosy about the projects they want to work on and the people they want to work with and the complicated history of a lot of these former partnerships on other past games means that some coders won't work with game owners and vice versa.

Just easier said.
Hard to do.

[Groth]

@gangofdolls said in Spirit Lake: An Original Modern Fantasy Game:

and coders who can knit the backend systems together (this is often the hardest part to scale).Because there are so few coders in this community so they have the ability to be choosy about the projects they want to work on and the people they want to work with and the complicated history of a lot of these former partnerships on other past games means that some coders won't work with game owners and vice versa.

Just easier said.
Hard to do.

I don't think we're that rare honestly (There's multiples of us, multiples!) but most coders aren't interested in running a game (if they were, they'd code their own game) and if you're going to spend hundreds of hours working for free on someone elses game you need to be really sold on the vision of the game-runner.

[Meg]

@groth also motivation to code even for something you like (or get paid for) is sometimes hard to come up with? Just like anything. That is why a lot of people don't write books or make games for fun, or etc etc.

I've had a game idea bouncing around in my head for years, I know how to code, and that is as far as it has ever gotten.

[Ganymede]

@gangofdolls said in Spirit Lake: An Original Modern Fantasy Game:

I feel kind of weirdly ... punished or something that I can't be online all day.

It's taken you this long? I've been feeling this way for years.

I'm sure the game will open again. If not, so be it. The people I wanted to play with are there, and while I will miss them there will be other stories for other days.

[skew]

@groth said in Spirit Lake: An Original Modern Fantasy Game:

@gangofdolls said in Spirit Lake: An Original Modern Fantasy Game:

and coders who can knit the backend systems together (this is often the hardest part to scale).Because there are so few coders in this community so they have the ability to be choosy about the projects they want to work on and the people they want to work with and the complicated history of a lot of these former partnerships on other past games means that some coders won't work with game owners and vice versa.

Just easier said.
Hard to do.

I don't think we're that rare honestly (There's multiples of us, multiples!) but most coders aren't interested in running a game (if they were, they'd code their own game) and if you're going to spend hundreds of hours working for free on someone elses game you need to be really sold on the vision of the game-runner.

I've helped a few people set up games. I've offered up my help to more. I've yet to see any of those games go live, and it's def not because the code isn't there. I've even recently given someone an entirely set up and functional game, but they want to go another direction. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[faraday]

@skew said in Spirit Lake: An Original Modern Fantasy Game:

I've helped a few people set up games. I've offered up my help to more. I've yet to see any of those games go live, and it's def not because the code isn't there. I've even recently given someone an entirely set up and functional game, but they want to go another direction. ¯_(ツ)_/¯

Yeah, likewise. With my old Penn code suite and now even moreso with Ares, you can get a game set up and fully coded with standard systems in a few hours. Volund and Theno and skew and others have all helped set up games.

Now, sure, if you want some Arx-like economy/clue/etc. or Spirit Lake magic system, that's gonna take some custom code work. But that's a choice (a completely valid and understandable choice, but nevertheless a choice). You can get a game going without a coder.

[Auspice]

@faraday said in Spirit Lake: An Original Modern Fantasy Game:

@skew said in Spirit Lake: An Original Modern Fantasy Game:

I've helped a few people set up games. I've offered up my help to more. I've yet to see any of those games go live, and it's def not because the code isn't there. I've even recently given someone an entirely set up and functional game, but they want to go another direction. ¯_(ツ)_/¯

Yeah, likewise. With my old Penn code suite and now even moreso with Ares, you can get a game set up and fully coded with standard systems in a few hours. Volund and Theno and skew and others have all helped set up games.

Now, sure, if you want some Arx-like economy/clue/etc. or Spirit Lake magic system, that's gonna take some custom code work. But that's a choice (a completely valid and understandable choice, but nevertheless a choice). You can get a game going without a coder.

My issue is never the code.

It's populating all the theme files. >.>

[Scissors]

@faraday In all my years of Mushing, I have never even come close to considering setting up a game. But if the resources exist now that make things relatively easy....

....well, there is still the cost of hosting to consider, I guess?

[Deleted]

@scissors If you can find like-minded people to share the cost then it is basically only peanuts per person.

[Jeshin]

A server is like what 100 bucks a year, 200 a year?