Werewolf 2.0 & Nine Ways It Could Be Streamlined

[ThatGuyThere]

Wow I think we have a major disconnect as to what a major theme is. I have never found fire to be much of a theme at all in vampire, a weapon yes but not really a theme anymore then guns are a theme in most games with a modern setting. Useful tools and weapons yes but rarely more then that.
Maybe we should try a different tactic in this discussion, what are the major werewolf things you are keeping?
As far as removing the forms I would be a little disappointed cause I tended to be in Urshal a lot when playing a werewolf, but really that change would not matter much. I would just rarely be in any form but human with being a wolf occasionally. I think I was in the war form twice in playing wolves across two different games.

[crusader]

@HelloRaptor said:

But its not WoD.

To be clear, that's not what I said, though perhaps you meant it's not WoD Werewolf.

The core wod setting is generic enough that it could be home to all manner of crazy shit, and as a jumping off point you could tack on whatever you liked, even stripped down, soulless versions of other game lines. So what he's presenting would work just fine as a using-wod-setting-and-mechanics-to-play-WEREWOLVES-BUT-REALLY or whatever.

It's just got nothing to do with nwod werewolf, and it's not because you're creating 'hacks' to fix 'design flaws', and everything to do with just wanting to play another game entirely that happens to include things that will be called werewolves.

It's interesting that the Forsaken writers could put out several mini-pdfs (there were four, called Chronicles) which discussed various lore hacks they've used in their game, and that's still nwod werewolf...even though some are much more dramatic than mine. Some of which were anticipated by Forsaken 2.0.

But Forsaken and Forsaken 2.0 still have alot of owod baggage. And much of it doesn't hold up well on a MUSH with lots of people and limited staff interaction.

I'd like you to be honest with yourself, Raptor. And consider this for a moment in a serious voice, and not a jokey voice.

In all of your time playing, have you ever thought that staff really handled a pack's totem spirits, territory, Renown (oh, the various shitstorms about Renown) or Morality checks particularly well? Or has it mostly been either ignored, arbitrary or often disputed?

[Coin]

@crusader, again, you're putting this on "Staff" as if these things are 'design flaws' that don't work because they 'only work in TT but not MUs'. I am so tired of saying this: these games were not designed for online play the way we play them. You do understand this, right?

[crusader]

@Coin said:

@crusader, again, you're putting this on "Staff" as if these things are 'design flaws' that don't work because they 'only work in TT but not MUs'. I am so tired of saying this: these games were not designed for online play the way we play them. You do understand this, right?

What's your point? That's the whole reason for this thread. Why would you even post that, when I acknowledge that as the exact reason in like the first 4 lines of my first post?

I'm trying to present these issues in the objective reality of how they're actually handled on various games, and most people here seem to prefer some idealized tabletop setting or small, exceptional group of people.

I'm basing my experience not on those few friends I had fun apping in with, but how in a werewolf sphere of 50+ people, at least 30 were clueless and could care less. And all of the arguments and drama related to shit like Renown.

[Coin]

My pioint is that you're still arguing they are design flaws when they aren't. We just use them in a medium that makes them more difficult to apply properly. It's two different problems, the latter of which makes your post less of a "fix" and more of a "preference".

[crusader]

@Coin said:

My pioint is that you're still arguing they are design flaws when they aren't. We just use them in a medium that makes them more difficult to apply properly. It's two different problems, the latter of which makes your post less of a "fix" and more of a "preference".

You've already taken issue with my title.

What do you think about the other eight points, btw?

[crusader]

@ThatGuyThere said:

Wow I think we have a major disconnect as to what a major theme is. I have never found fire to be much of a theme at all in vampire, a weapon yes but not really a theme anymore then guns are a theme in most games with a modern setting. Useful tools and weapons yes but rarely more then that.
Maybe we should try a different tactic in this discussion, what are the major werewolf things you are keeping?
As far as removing the forms I would be a little disappointed cause I tended to be in Urshal a lot when playing a werewolf, but really that change would not matter much. I would just rarely be in any form but human with being a wolf occasionally. I think I was in the war form twice in playing wolves across two different games.

I think discussion on point #1 has more or less run its course. I totally respect people's opinions about it. I do think some are reaching for low fruit in attaching a much greater importance to the Shadow as a vehicle for 'outrage'. The Shadow is what it is. If a small, tight group can make it work, then great. But it's one of those things where if everyone isn't on board and equally OOCly knowledgeable, it tends to suck. And most nwod Forsaken players treat it like owod umbra anyways.

Furthermore, Forsaken 2.0 divorced the Shadow even more strongly from the game, as four of the tribes are built in such a way that they have no reason to ever enter the Shadow and are even suggested not to. Going into the Shadow is a niche Bone Shadow thing. The mechanics for entering the Shadow were made more difficult.

Tribes and Auspices are entirely irrelevant as to anything but a White Wolf paradigm charater creation process.

Totem spirits and loci are never given attention by staff in an online game. So removing them and replacing them with a kind of fluid pack dynamic, makes sense. Better staff doesn't solve the issue. Not unless you had one great staffer per pack.

I struggle to realistically accept any of these as core parts of werewolf's deeper themes.

But thank you for mentioning the point about dalu and urshul. That mirrors the experiences I've had both as staff and storyteller, with my players. Those two forms received about 90% of the action, as opposed to man, wolf or wolf-man. And I do honestly think that is a tragedy and IS a flaw in the system.

[Misadventure]

So instead of flaws, read the word as issues, and get onto discussing whether players will miss these things, or if there are other approaches to fixing the issues, or related issues, mentioned.

[crusader]

@Misadventure said:

So instead of flaws, read the word as issues, and get onto discussing whether players will miss these things, or if there are other approaches to fixing the issues, or related issues, mentioned.

Right. I'm still really curious in people's opinions of #2-#9, if they can get away from the Shadow bit.

I fully take the blame for leading off with the most controversial and provocative statement. But in my defense, it's not like I pulled it out of my ass. It's lifted almost wholesale from one of WW's own publications. (Albeit, a semi-official mini-pdf released online). So it never occurred to me that the Shadow was a fundamental part of the werewolf experience. I find it interesting that it touched a nerve in so many veterans. And it will influence my thoughts on it and how I broach it to people in the future.

[ThatGuyThere]

You never answered my question, what themes are you leaving behind? Honestly I can't think of any besides fighting for territory. With out the higher purpose it seems like gang wars which doesn't particularly interesting to me. And without Harmony any mechanical teeth are taken form a personal story of degradation into a monster. I am not against changes in general, but what to you see the characters doing in this game? And why is what they do ICly important to them? These two things to me are the essential questions or any game design.
For example I avoid D-n-D games that are heavy on the dungeon crawl cause I do not like dungeon crawls. This does not make me or people that like dungeon crawls wrong but it does mean we shouldn't' be in the same d-n-d game. And that includes one of my RL best friends who I game just about anything but d-n-d with.

[crusader]

@ThatGuyThere said:

You never answered my question, what themes are you leaving behind? Honestly I can't think of any besides fighting for territory. With out the higher purpose it seems like gang wars which doesn't particularly interesting to me. And without Harmony any mechanical teeth are taken form a personal story of degradation into a monster. I am not against changes in general, but what to you see the characters doing in this game? And why is what they do ICly important to them? These two things to me are the essential questions or any game design.
For example I avoid D-n-D games that are heavy on the dungeon crawl cause I do not like dungeon crawls. This does not make me or people that like dungeon crawls wrong but it does mean we shouldn't' be in the same d-n-d game. And that includes one of my RL best friends who I game just about anything but d-n-d with.

You're inviting a monster post from me, about the themes staying behind. So you're forewarned.

I like the fact that you're putting the onus on me to set out what's good and stays, and not just what's bad and goes. I'll give it the response it deserves, when I get home tonight.

[Miss Demeanor]

Frankly? I don't give a hoot about Dalu and Urshul. I also don't care for WoD Werewolf on the whole. Hate the Renown stuff. Pain in the ASS that is. I don't have any issues with Harmony checks, no more than I do Morality or Humanity or Clarity checks. If I do bad things with a character, I expect there to be consequences.

And I think the things you're trying to remove are core precepts to World of Darkness Werewolf, not necessarily werewolf as a whole, but that particular corner of it? Yes.

[Sunny]

I'd just like to throw out here that for the love of god yes, we get that one of the Forsaken game designers put out something that inspired you to do this. We've read the words, we see them.

It does not give your argument any weight that a game designer said it. It is completely irrelevant to the topic at hand.

Also, if you're looking to play a real werewolf game that doesn't involve spirits / massive theme slaughter of an existing game, I'd recommend using Cinematic Unisystem or something along those lines. They probably do what you want a lot better than whacking at what makes Forsaken Forsaken.

[Arkandel]

@crusader I don't think anyone here suggested your ideas are bad, or that a game based on them wouldn't/couldn't be fun.

Just that it's not nWoD, which I think is fair to say is accurate.

[Sunny]

@Arkandel said:

@crusader I don't think anyone here suggested your ideas are bad, or that a game based on them wouldn't/couldn't be fun.

Just that it's not nWoD, which I think is fair to say is accurate.

This. Exactly this.

[Misadventure]

To be fair, folks may be open to something not WoD, either for variety, or because they don't much care about the specifics of the WoD setting anyhow.

[crusader]

@Sunny said:

@Arkandel said:

@crusader I don't think anyone here suggested your ideas are bad, or that a game based on them wouldn't/couldn't be fun.

Just that it's not nWoD, which I think is fair to say is accurate.

This. Exactly this.

You do realize, that I know the only reason you're here, is because of the level of hysteric offense you took, in the Detroit-related thread, where you were in the minority. You've already attacked me in another thread, when I wasn't even remotely engaged with you. But Ark echoed you there as well, and I guess you're repaying the favor.

[crusader]

@Coin said:

My pioint is that you're still arguing they are design flaws when they aren't. We just use them in a medium that makes them more difficult to apply properly. It's two different problems, the latter of which makes your post less of a "fix" and more of a "preference".

If you want to be pedantic about the title of my post, go ahead. I titled it the way it is because Werewolf 2.0's Nine Design Issues That Are More Difficult To Apply Properly In An Online Medium' didn't roll off the tongue so easily. If you want to keep focusing on that, for like the 5th post now, I'm going to begin to wonder where mildly constructive ends and trolling begins. But like Sunny, I know you're only here because of the Detroit thread.

If Detroit is your bar for what is good or fun in werewolf - and that abortion of a werewolf apps page - then I am ecstatic you disagree with my ideas.' Now please, do me the courtesy I afforded you in the Detroit thread, unless you can do something but mention the same damned thing for the sixth time in a row.

[crusader]

It's funny how those that disagree with me seem to eventually preface their posts with 'I don't care about werewolf'. Okay, so why are you even here? How are you even invested in storytelling or running a werewolf sphere for the majority of people who aren't knowledgeable veterans?

The other cadre are those that have come directly from the Detroit thread. If your idea of a good theme and good lore, is how werewolf there is handled...then clearly, we have no constructive common ground. But since this is my thread, you can probably do me the courtesy that I did the Detroit thread, and tip my hat and fuck off.

Hardly anyone in this thread seems to understand Werewolf: The Forsaken theme.

People seem to have an idea of it in their head, but not what the writers themselves have actually written as the most important concepts. Let's open it up to the first page, to see what the writers claim is the foundational concepts of the splat:

1. Werewolf is a game of savage violence and bloody horror.
2. Werewolf is about dominance and violence, about a world divided into "us" and "them" It's about hunting and being hunted in turn. It's about how far you would go for one of your own.
3. Werewolf is about finding prey and running it to the ground, hearing it roar or defiance or beg for mercy, then crushing its throat in your jaws. It's about enjoying violence and dominance in a way you won't otherwise admit to.
4. Werewolf is a game about the thrill of the hunt, and the fear of being hunted.

That's the first paragraph of the introduction. The Shadow and spirits aren't even mentioned.

The Inspirational Media has only four selections. They are 'American Werewolf in London', 'Dog Soldiers', 'Ginger Snaps' and 'Murcheston:: The Wolf's Tale'.

Non-werewolf media is given as 'Boyz n the Hood', 'The Shield', and 'Sons of Anarchy'. Where is the Native American cosmology rip-off in that? I don't see 'Dances with Wolves' listed. Like it or not, the original theme and core design of Werewolf is closer to my vision than yours. If you'd ever read the pdf, you'd know that already.

The design flaw in Werewolf is setting out these themes and inspirations, and then doing a 180 into entirely different, owod-esque pseudo Native American cosmology that doesn't significantly impact the core werewolf game. This is a holdover from owod, just like the werewolf sex was a holdover taboo from metis.

In that sense, my 'fixes' do make Werewolf more New World of Darkness, and less Old World of Darkness.

If you disagree with me, fine. But don't just talk out of your ass. At least have an understanding of werewolf. At least have read the new 2.0 pdf so you have any basis for engagement. Don't just be here with an axe to grind for something I disagreed with you about in another thread. Because all I'm seeing here is a whole lot of condescending ignorance about the game they're professing to defend.

And again. If you don't care about werewolf. If you don't care about storytelling it, or running a game based on it in a more sensible online fashion, then why are you even here? All I've seen is a lot of trolling about the same ad nauseum issue, which isn't even correct to begin with, as the games own writers would have it. It's like all you can see is the old White Wolf paradigm of choosing your character like you would an MMO character, by slotting it into some Auspice/Tribe version of classes. That's not the core werewolf experience. That's just a character creation White Wolf trope.

So please, tell me some more how my ideas aren't true to Werewolf. If this post comes off as a bit harsh, then it's because it's hard to stay courteous when I've got three people from the Detroit thread trolling me.

[Sunny]

@crusader said:

@Sunny said:

@Arkandel said:

@crusader I don't think anyone here suggested your ideas are bad, or that a game based on them wouldn't/couldn't be fun.

Just that it's not nWoD, which I think is fair to say is accurate.

This. Exactly this.

You do realize, that I know the only reason you're here, is because of the level of hysteric offense you took, in the Detroit-related thread, where you were in the minority. You've already attacked me in another thread, when I wasn't even remotely engaged with you. But Ark echoed you there as well, and I guess you're repaying the favor.

Uhm. This wasn't an attack, actually. It was a compliment. Rage on, tiny zebra. I actually read all the threads on the site and was trying to figure out how to articulate pretty much what @Arkandel said. So I agreed. Because it does sound like good fun and something I would actually play. But it's not Forsaken to me and in my interpretations and for what I find fun in. It's just werewolf...and to play that, I really do think Cinematic Unisystem is a better idea.