City of Shadows

[Arkandel]

@Taika said in City of Shadows:

There's no particular theme, per se, but the game itself will be -very- cross sphere. I expect to see packs, coteries, cabals, and the like with lots of cross-sphere tie-ins. The overall feel I'm aiming for is 'tense cooperation'.

You don't need a particular theme; in fact very WoD MUSHes with a very specific theme have survived their first few weeks as staff struggled to enforce their vision of how things should work versus players trying to run a multitude of things they're interested in.

What you need - IMHO, of course - is stuff for these players to do. To rephrase it - if you just open a sandbox WoD game, no matter the code, and expect players to form alliances and run/get involved in plots on their own initiative you will almost certainly watch a very familiar pattern unfold as the MU* runs through an initial but brief window of high activity ("Yay, I have a new PC!") followed by a mixed bag of enthusiasm and apathy based on whether people find dancing partners ("Yay I found a great person to play with" / "Boo I'm sitting in a room alone and I'm bored") followed by inactivity when even the enthusiastic finally look around, see nothing else happening, and drop off themselves.

You guys sound like you're doing a lot of work, and it's a shame not to protect it by making sure the game retains is players. Find people ahead of time who'll run plot, incentivize the hell out of it. Give reasons for PCs to mingle that aren't just a wiki page somewhere, create IC politics for the PCs to be each other's allies and antagonists. You don't need a theme for that but you do need folks willing to get their hands dirty for a while to create and maintain intrigue until it has its own momentum.

Just some suggestions.

[Taika]

Plot is the easy part. There's been a ton of idea tossing and I'm sitting on so many plot ideas. I'm super excited to run them and see them run.

Here's the helpfile from the game on xp gains. All pc's start with 10xp.

XP Gains

+- A passive beat (.2 xp) will be awarded nightly.

+- Players can earn +2 beats (.4 xp) per plot scene participated in. This can include large
social scenes, or important, smaller, social scenes such as Clan meetings as well as more
plot and combat oriented scenes.

+- +1 beat (.2xp) is granted to ST's for running scenes as a show of appreciation for the
hard work involved.

+- An additional +1 beat (.2xp) for running or being in a plot from the +plots roster.

+- Fulfillment of Aspirations

+- Some conditions award beats.

+- +Randomscene (Max of 7 additional beats per week.)

+- Taking lethal damage in one of the last 3 boxes.

+- Dramatic Failures.

+- Each sphere also has specific events that gives beats (Such as frenzy.)

Randomscene is some custom code. Remember how RfK had those custom matched lists of people to rp with?

+rs is codified. It selects a list of Approved pc's and gives you a handful of people to match to, up to +7 beats/week. I want to say it pulls a list of 10 names, allowing for timezones and such.

The first 2 weeks that someone is on the game, they are constantly matchable. I believe that Sombronax pulled both from RfK's idea and the code from Arx for inspiration.

[Lisse24]

The last two WoD games I played both had plots, and both fell into the same pattern described above. Plot is a good beginning, more important is making sure players can connect to that plot, and that there's enough plot to keep wheels spinning, without falling into the "Supernatural" trap of constantly needing bigger and badder as you cycle through various ways to stave off the end of the world.

[Coin]

@Taika said in City of Shadows:

+- Some conditions award beats.

Most Conditions give Beats. Save for Tilts, in fact, I can't remember any that don't when they are Resolved. You only don't really get Beats if the Condition fades over time.

(I'm not saying that's how you want it, just how the rules go, iirc. You might change that for the game. Up to you.)

[Taika]

I'm not sure where you get that most conditions give beats. For instance, starting at page 306 in WtF, 6 of 41 conditions listed give beats (no, I didn't look in the tilts, either).I can do a quick skim-count of the others, but I think 'Some' is a good word for the number of conditions that give beats, if we're being pedantic.

eta: looked in mage, 16 of 34 give beats.
changeling has 22 of 61
vampire: 15 of 44
CoD: 6 of 23
HL: seems to only have 5 new conditions, and they all award beats, for persistent injuries like limb loss, deafness, and blindness.

I -had- to go and look after saying that to make sure I wasn't talking out my ass.

[Arkandel]

@Taika said in City of Shadows:

Plot is the easy part. There's been a ton of idea tossing and I'm sitting on so many plot ideas. I'm super excited to run them and see them run.

Here's the helpfile from the game on xp gains. All pc's start with 10xp.

And all that is fine. You'll do well to incentivize PrPs but it's not all I was talking about when I was referring to plot. Consider the following:

• a simple fact: not everyone enjoys PrPs - I do, I know others don't.
• access to plot is not universal - I can run scenes for my cabal/coterie/pack, but how does that help Joe Newbie from a weird timezone?
• not every PC is created equal for PrPs; combat characters for example historically work in almost all scenarios because it's so much easier to throw a violent scenario together than, say, a hacker or well connected socialite.

So if you want your game to succeed you should cater to more people than that. IC politics is such a good motivator when done right because PCs can maneuver around each other, creating alliances and getting in each other's way as much as anything you throw at them from the top. Make a few positions open not right at the top but close enough to smell fresh air, for example, then have groups vie for them; enable things like loci, status, feeding grounds and territories have meaning, then see who controls them. Stuff like that - make characters engage in the world you're making for them.

That's as important to 'plot' as anything a Storyteller can do because it's so organic.

Another heavily underused trick I'm surprised games don't utilize is hand-pick faction heads from active, responsible people. Someone like Gany for example (I'm not pitching, the lawbot is an example but a good one) can get a faction going so you could build around players like that; populate a few of them properly and once you get enough buy-in from players to reach critical mass they are not going to leave. It's that investment you should really want, the feeling of wanting to log on and see what the next cool thing will be.

But that takes work. I'm not saying you should do it - it's a heavy ask. Games like Arx succeeded on similar principles because they are ran by insane people. What I'm suggesting are possibilities, and that encouraging plot is not (unfortunately) as simple as saying "okay, whoever runs a PrP gets an XP". It's way more hands-on than that.

I hope some of this helps and that it's constructive.

[WildBaboons]

To build on this:

access to plot is not universal - I can run scenes for my cabal/coterie/pack, but how does that help Joe Newbie from a weird timezone?

don't make joining a cabal/Coterie/Pack/Whatever a requirement for involvement. it's my unpopular opinion that those small groups aren't a good fit for a MU. they are great for table top but I've rarely seen them done in an online game where it's been a Good Thing and good number of players avoid them.

[Arkandel]

@WildBaboons That's a good point. In the last WoD MU* I was playing it was weird sometimes because there were tight IC ties with certain Uratha from other packs, yet when it was time to run something that was for our pack suddenly we had to figure out ways and reasons to include them - in a way it felt wrong, like we were doing something we weren't supposed to be doing. Are we poaching? Would there be hard feelings? Do we need to figure out reasons this person is coming with?

And the assumption it's 'so easy' for people to be in such groups is total bullshit. Look - it's not easy. It's effortless if you're already connected OOC and/or active, but for many players it's where RP dies because there are so few people willing to take on the mantle, do the mechanical groundwork ("we need to stat a totem now"), etc.

And then some of those guys stop playing, other players become active... this is just everyday stuff for a MUSH.

The 'small group' model could use a retouch to be more dynamic than it is in the books.

[Lisse24]

Everything that @Arkandel said. All of it. Especially the 'access to plot' bit. Far too often Plot goes to either a) the person who is on all the time and able to do all the things or b) the person who has the right connections and hears the right information. This is not good or healthy. You want the newbie who doesn't know anyone to be able to get involved easily. You also want the person who only has a few nights a week to devote to RP to be able to have meaningful interactions.

As to the small group stuff. Meh. I've seen coteries and packs work fine- but players may need a little assistance finding one. That means you've gotta be pushing players towards each other, and I don't see that happening on WoD games. Ever. People just sit with their gazillion alts in the OOC rooms and wait for PRPs. I don't think that culture works and I don't think there will be a successful WoD game unless it tackles that culture.

[Taika]

I totally agree about the access to plots. That's part of the +plots - it gives off-time folks a way to actively tie in with the bigger plot arcs going on, including the secret plot twist stuff, without needed a staffer to be on to run it.

Information spread, bbposts, access to NPC's (even if just by +job and play by post if need be).

Breaking up some of the tiny bubble cliques is part of why I'm pushing for tons of cross sphere activity and adding in the system to have a currency for buying boons that all splats can get access to.

There's only so much staff can do, too, though. If staff doesn't have the support of players to make the magic happen, then it's dead in the water. Likewise, players without staff support can also really struggle. The trick is finding the perfect balance. Get the info to the people willing to spread it and push to help loop in newbies. Have the staff go to them and find out what they might be interested in to.draw them in.

It's not /hard/, on paper, it's just a lot of communication that seems to be missing between players and staff that gets tripped on.

[Lisse24]

@Taika Yeah, I'm not sure how you're planning to have +plots to work, but I would have suggested some form of that command if you hadn't mentioned planning on it.

If I can make another suggestion? I think you only want your randomscene code to pull 2 or 3 PCs not 10. 10 names are too many to think about. The code will still be used, but only really by high-frequency players, who will be bent on abusing it for XP. However, 3 names or less are easy to hold in your head. So players will see their randomscene names, think, 'oh, cool,' before they check out +where or whatever to see what's going on. When they get to that next step, you want them to have those names in their memory still so that when they see one, they'll get the urge to go find that person for RP. I think it would also be helpful if randomscene commands were reciprocal (if you have someone's name on your list they also have yours, so you're searching with each other).

[Ganymede]

@Taika said in City of Shadows:

There's only so much staff can do, too, though. If staff doesn't have the support of players to make the magic happen, then it's dead in the water. Likewise, players without staff support can also really struggle. The trick is finding the perfect balance. Get the info to the people willing to spread it and push to help loop in newbies. Have the staff go to them and find out what they might be interested in to.draw them in.

Territories.

Let me say it again: territories.

I think your most important "buy-in" is the ability for players to affect the world they are in through their characters. Plots are one way to do it, but territory development is another. That, I think, is what made RfK so damned successful: there was something to fight for.

When you have something to fight for, you will make alliances to protect it. On The Descent v. 1.0, Wolf actively sought out anyone who would assist him in protecting and developing his territory. On The Descent 2.0, Templeton did the same thing. Allowing players to shape the world they are in through their characters will draw people in. On Echoes in the Mists, protecting the Church is what drives Maddy. A player like me needs that motivation to keep things going. And if I'm as skilled a sphere-driver as Arkandel thinks, then I think you need to re-visit this system and take the time to code it up or have someone do it for you. (Modern Nights, a V20 game, has a Downtime and Action system you may be able to adapt.)

If you want folks to steer away from the tradition race-based groups and towards multi-race factions, then I highly recommend implementing a territory system that works irrespective of what race you might be. It will be tricky with Mages, but I think it can be done. Making the game all about protecting and modifying one's claimed territory will steer people away the "more traditional" traps that games tend to fall in.

[Lisse24]

@Ganymede said in City of Shadows:

If you want folks to steer away from the tradition race-based groups and towards multi-race factions, then I highly recommend implementing a territory system that works irrespective of what race you might be. It will be tricky with Mages, but I think it can be done. Making the game all about protecting and modifying one's claimed territory will steer people away the "more traditional" traps that games tend to fall in.

If you create a system that players can use to create, modify, and use territory, this also gives your high-frequency players something to do that will keep them invested in the game without needing staff to go crazy creating plot for them. I have such a system written and will share if you want to use it or just use as a stepping off point. Pretty sure there's also some LARP stuff out there that does the same thing, though.

[Taika]

Politics should be fierce. Upfront it's all happy and cozy and friendly, but behind the scenes there's 3 praxes jousting for dominance and to undermine each other. Mage and Changeling are still in a more building phase. Wolves will have their hands full with a nightmarish mess and likely being fought over as meatshields for the factions.

Each neighborhood has 3 traits in the room parent: Sphere, Group, and Risk. Basically which sphere has greatest claim, which pack/coterie/gang/or brave individual has local claim, and the Risk is how likely you are to get messed up. Misleading and shifty due to plot and all influences, mundane and otherwise.

For instance:

If there's a biker gang of mortals, you can bet the Vampires in the area are going to jockey to control them or run them out.

Same for, say, mages, looking to control a coterie.

This is where the coins come in. Buy, sell, trade you favors to gain strength.

Enough coin can assassinate a Prince or turn a Changeling against a motley.

There are nasty consequences for failing to perform a task bought with coin. Everyone has a price, though...

[Arkandel]

@Taika Also if you have Mages mixing it up... they will rule your game. I'm a fan of the sphere itself but the power discrepancy is enormous. Just sayin'.

[Taika]

For sure, they could. I plan on keeping them pretty busy. And the low/slow xp gain should help somewhat keep them in line to an extent.

I mean, they -could- go out and wreak havoc, but there's also consequences for it, too.

[Arkandel]

@Taika For sure, you can try to keep them in line using artificial plot reasons and it might work in the long term if you're consistent. But that doesn't change the most important 'balance' that matters in a game; faction demographics which will be tilted in the Mage sphere's favor right away.

Anyway I don't want to turn the thread into a Mage thread.

[Taika]

Heehee #YetAnotherMageThread.

I think, honestly, communication'll be pretty key. Being upfront with the 'hey, please don't cosmic phenomenal power the game right out of the box or I will find you some itty bitty living space'. It's probably wishful thinking.

Now I'm idly wondering if Shadworun's mage treatment would work for WoD mages. Total sensory dep and heavy doses of drugs to keep 'em compliant.

[Deleted]

Mage needs some serious homebrewing if you intend to make it multi-sphere. There's a few ways you could go about it:

1. Rituals only. Mages can only do shit with prep time. This solves the 'walking juggernaut' nonsense pretty well.

2. Blood magic. Every time Mages use magic, they hurt themselves with injuries that can only be healed with time. The stronger the magic, the more damage they take.

3. Ultra-Disbelief. If there's mortals watching, nothing works. You can't bend the world in ways that the mundanes can possibly notice. Reality just resists. That only nerfs some spheres though, so... it's a mixed bag.

4. Capping. Cap Mages at X power level and don't allow them to go any higher. Other spheres will surpass them in raw power, but that's not really a problem since Mages have the most creative-usage stuff out there.

5. Number Cap. Only X number of Mages on grid. Forced small population. They can be godlike, sure, but they're also going to be outnumbered. When someone freezers, a spot opens up.

Any one of those would make Mage work a lot better on multisphere games.

[Warma Sheen]

Listen to Arkandel. Avoid Mage.