What do you eat?

[Kestrel]

@Rinel said in What do you eat?:

It's very important to distinguish between veganism and vegetarianism. Vegetarianism has an ancient history. Veganism, in contrast, has only been possible since the 20th century (when it was invented), because a vegan diet will cause fatal B12 deficiency without supplementation that was impossible to provide through vegan means until then.

But B12 doesn't come from animal products; it comes from bacteria, and with livestock being fed antibiotics, B12 has to be supplemented in their diets.

In the wild and throughout most of human history, B12 would've just as easily been gotten by drinking unpurified water. Our hygienic lives today mean it has to be supplemented artificially, either via the animals we eat, or in tablet form directly.

It's the only vitamin which can't be obtained from a plant-based diet in adequate quantities and which vegans can be found measurably deficient in, but that's actually true for omnivores, too. (Source) Like Vitamin D, it's one of those things we should probably all be taking in supplement form, regardless of what you eat.

[Ganymede]

@Kestrel said in What do you eat?:

Can I ask why you live non-carb?

I eschew carbs mostly because I choose to. Also, I go into keto when I go into a training cycle because I have found that such diet gives me more energy and better recovery times.

I've read many studies. I've watched many documentaries. And as a result, I believe that the Blue Zone studies are the best indicia of what would help if you want to live a long healthy life. That being said, for the reasons you've stated, I believe what matters most is not how or what you put into you but rather how much and what you do with it.

First, I have concluded that studies suffer from a great deal of confirmation bias and lack of controls. The diversity of food studies and their results only demonstrate to me how inconclusive the science is. Take, for instance, your study on the gut microbiome of the Japanese in Okinawa. The first study on which it was based only had 13 individuals and the instant study had only 106 individuals. Given that Okinawa has a Japanese population of over 1 million, this study seems extremely limited.

Second, I have concluded, as you state, that the common factors across the populations in Blue Zones are the most important. I look at my parents as examples: they both walk at least an hour a day, enjoy spending time with friends, family, and colleagues locally, and are generally faith-abiding. That said, their diets aren't exactly balanced, and while they no longer eat a lot of meat (because of dental issues, mostly) they certainly do not and did not avoid it.

Finally, you don't need to eat animal products to live low-carb. If you're fortunate enough to be able to eat seeds and nuts, you can remain vegan and go low-carb. You could get your fats from: (1) avocados; (2) dark chocolate; (3) chia seeds; (4) EVOO; and (5) coconuts and coconut oil. Need proteins? Try tofu, tempeh, and peanut butter. And whereas many sites advise you to stay within 20-50 grams of carbs to get into keto, you can still hit keto if you eat 100-150 grams (40-50% of daily recommended intake), exercise, and keep your calories around the 2,000 mark (it just takes longer).

Prior I stuck with keto for 3 months before I shifted into a low-carb diet and have kept the weight off despite numerous "life-based" interruptions. This year I intend to get into keto again for 3 months before shifting back into a low-carb diet. The trick is getting the non-animal fats into my diet so far, but I'm looking into what I can do to change that. Aside from that, getting more mobility and raising my lifting capacity (again) are on my checklist.

But the most important thing (so far) is quitting the smoking habit. Not looking back on that one. And if I kick it for good but end up sticking to meat-eating? Yeah, I'm gonna have no regrets.

[Arkandel]

@Ganymede said in What do you eat?:

First, I have concluded that studies suffer from a great deal of confirmation bias and lack of controls. The diversity of food studies and their results only demonstrate to me how inconclusive the science is.

I concur. It was frankly shocking to me when I realized just how shaky research is on matters of nutrition and just how many studies either use tiny samples or lack some semblance of control groups to validate their conclusions.

For example even very basic questions such as "how much protein is needed" or "does the timing of meals matter" are answered differently by researchers who often resort to anecdotal evidence ('this is what worked for me') to support their claims.

It's frustrating and it's given way to a whole lot of bro-science to emerge, especially once confirmation bias started to play a role - is <athlete's name>'s nutrition what made them great, or are they great and their nutrition simply supported their needs? Unclear!

At this point I think the choice of diet should be personally chosen on the same basis as the choice of exercise; do what works for you, selected on the basis that anything you do will be better than nothing at all, and that if it doesn't fit your life then you won't do it, which ultimately defeats the whole point. Is it keto? That's great! If It Fits Your Macros? That's awesome! Eat small meals around the day? Weight Watchers? Some medically supervised diet?

Whatever, as long as it's relatively healthy then it's probably better than eating potato chips all day and we're better off for doing that instead.

[Ganymede]

@Arkandel said in What do you eat?:

For example even very basic questions such as "how much protein is needed" or "does the timing of meals matter" are answered differently by researchers who often resort to anecdotal evidence ('this is what worked for me') to support their claims.

I don't mind anecdotal evidence or advice. In fact, I think that most of us follow anecdotal evidence and/or advice when it comes to what we believe to be healthy choices. And there's nothing wrong with that.

If someone were to ask me how to lose weight, I'd probably go with the following questions:

1. Do you like to go out with friends to drink and smoke?: If so, there's nothing wrong with that -- well, except for the smoking part. We all know smoking's bad for you, but it's also pretty fucking expensive too. And if you like to drink, consider going with low-carb alternatives that fit your lifestyle; for beer-swillers, you may want to try a sipping whiskey, whereas wine-drinkers may enjoy a liquor-and-spritzer or, God forbid, a Whiteclaw.

2. Do you enjoy snacking in front of the TV?: Seriously, who the fuck doesn't? I do, but I try not to sit around with a bag of Doritos and a bowl of sour-cream-based dip. Instead, I like vegetables with tzatziki or salsa. My favorite? Celery and hot fucking salsa.

3. Do you exercise?: If so, great; if not, you might want to change that. Embarrassed at the gym? You may want to try an online service like Daily Burn, which has a variety of simple, intermediate, and fucking ridiculous workouts for you to load up. Best part? It comes in app form, so you can upload it to a Firestick, laptop, or cell phone and workout anywhere you have Internet service.

4. Do you live with someone else?: Next question -- do you both want to get healthier? Because nothing is better than a little "healthy" (har har) competition. Try what works for them; share what works for you.

5. Are you judgmental about things?: No one ever admits to it, but for those that are you should consider letting it go. Judgmental people tend to judge themselves as well, and that is probably the biggest stumbling block to getting healthy. Let people enjoy what they want; you enjoy what you want. And if getting healthy and losing weight is what you want, enjoy the fuck out of it and don't let anyone deter you on your path to happiness. Fuck that, fuck them, and fucking do it.

[JinShei]

I've been a vegetarian all my life due to hippy parents. So I didn't make the choice to be vegetarian but I do choose to keep it going - mostly because I remember the information on animal treatment. This means, practically, that when someone did serve me ham in a pasta dish, I started feeling very sick before I noticed and then threw up the entire night (on a five-hour drive home - yay). My husband is a Northern Irish lad whose prefered diet is meat plus potatoes. So it is a delicate balancing act in our home. He eats more vegetarian, we have meat in the house which occasionally I cook because he respects my choices and I respect his.

B-group vitamins are a problem, not least because one of my meds stops dietary uptake of them, making it even harder.

My father went through a vegan stage (the absolute-evangelical type) during my teens when we rebelled by hiding milk and cheese in our rooms

[Arkandel]

@Ganymede said in What do you eat?:

I don't mind anecdotal evidence or advice. In fact, I think that most of us follow anecdotal evidence and/or advice when it comes to what we believe to be healthy choices. And there's nothing wrong with that.

There's nothing wrong with offering advice based on anecdotal evidence, it's just not science. For starters it's not necessarily reproducable - what worked for me might not work for you - nor conclusive; was the fact I consumed a lot of greek yogurt during my diet successful because somethingsomething-bacteria-digestive-track-something or just because it happened to fit within an otherwise caloric deficit? Unclear! And that means if you start gobbling up yogurt, too, it might work... or it might not.

I like numbers because they can lead to establishing a routine, which leads to forming habits. In my personal experience (heh) nothing is more important than habits - motivation isn't worth a damn thing against the pressures of everyday life, discipline wanes when you're tired and distracted, but good habits can carry you all the way to achieving your goals.

[Rinel]

@Kestrel said in What do you eat?:

In the wild and throughout most of human history, B12 would've just as easily been gotten by drinking unpurified water.

what.

Yes, maybe if you were drinking water contaminated with feces.

Look, there's nothing wrong with admitting veganism is a 20th century thing. But implying it is in any way equivalent to vegetarianism is wrong.

[surreality]

@Rinel said in What do you eat?:

Yes, maybe if you were drinking water contaminated with feces.

In all fairness, this is not totally uncommon in many parts of the world even today.

[Rinel]

@surreality

Sure, though it was and remains an incredibly unhealthy practice--and one that I seriously doubt could provide sufficient dietary B12.

[JinShei]

@Rinel @Kestrel Can I stick with my B12 tablets? I mean, I realise it isn't radical but...

[Rinel]

@JinShei

Haha yes of course. They're very useful things! I simply want the history clear.