Difference between an NPC and a Staff PC?

[bored]

This is getting increasingly ridiculous. No one is 'drafting a set of standards.' No one is going to go over and knock on Arx's door to make people stop TSing with their magic elves or PC-turned-NPC superheroes that are already lulzy as fuck in the ethics department.

But as a broad statement, I still have no problem casting NPC TS as generally unethical. Use @Ganymede's phrasing if you prefer, because lawyer, but there's so much baggage wrapped up in sexual interaction that I simply cannot accept people shrugging it off as no big deal. It will always be kind of a big deal, give or take, it will always carry implications of favoritism or coercion. It's not being treated special because we're prudes, it's being treated that way because human nature shows it to be that way.

I mean...

@Sparks said in Difference between an NPC and a Staff PC?:

Yes, if you are GM'ing for a specific organization—if you're running games at a convention for WotC or Paizo—you do have a set of rules you're expected to adhere to, and which you agree to when you sign up to do that for them. But if you are running a game in your house, you are not running it on behalf of anyone else. You do not have to sign anything before you sit down to run a game, not even if you post an open invite on the board at the gaming shop and allow people you don't even know to come.

If you're running a game in your house, you're still beholden to a 'set of standards' you yourself didn't create. They're called 'society' and the laws of wherever you live.

This is, again, where it becomes almost riotously bizarre the way this defense is being constructed. Sexual harassment of this kind is a real problem in gaming. Women getting hit on/propositioned/offered benefits for sexual favors in real life when entering gaming spaces is a problem long reported on. You wouldn't hesitate to call a DM doing that a deplorable of the highest magnitude, I imagine, even if they'd skirted breaking any actual laws. That is applying a set of standards to someone's home game, too. Saying its onerous to have even thoughts or discussions about it here is ridiculous.

[Tinuviel]

@bored said in Difference between an NPC and a Staff PC?:

No one is 'drafting a set of standards.'

We sort of are. Not a set of standards for games themselves, perhaps, but standards for how we treat things.

[saosmash]

Like, I've literally been doing this for 20 years and have consistently been able to have sex RP with sane partners who didn't get weird OOC about it, but to pretend it is impossible for people to RP sexually themed stuff without being weird OOC is every bit as absurd as you are attempting to cast this entire argument as.

No one is pretending this doesn't happen. Literally no one. To pretend that is the argument is to create a laughable strawman you can tear down, to which I have to say only this:

The point was the issue is the shitty behavior from people behaving shittily is what should be addressed, not the theoretical position where shitty behavior could potentially arise but also potentially not arise.

While I recognize the rational position from which a blanket ban on NPC sexytimes is based, I believe this hobby as a whole has a problem with creating standards that are based on the worst behaviors we want to prevent rather than creating standards based on good behaviors we want to foster. If we, as a community, were better at recognizing and excising the leaking pustules of humanity that ooze their bodily fluids all over the barrel when they first begin to stink, rather than giving their toxicity time to spread, we would have no need for blanket bans on this kind of conduct.

[faraday]

@Sparks said in Difference between an NPC and a Staff PC?:

That if I do not RP with both Susan and Fred precisely equal amounts, I am being a bad staffer and doing it wrong.... But what's been bothering me on some level is the implication of these rules: that staff are inherently obligated to do certain things, whether or not staff themselves have pledged to do so.

This may be an unpopular opinion, but here goes: Nobody - and I mean nobody - is entitled to my free time. It is for me to spend as I choose. If RPing with Fred is excruciating, then I'm not gonna RP with Fred, as player or as staff. The only thing I am obliged to do is that which I have willingly pledged myself to do, and that does not include providing everyone NPC-RP on demand or in equal measure.

What I do pledge, though, is to "provide a sane, fair and friendly environment for you to tell your stories." Part of that fairness means ensuring that Fred has the same opportunities for success as my BFF Mary. I do not need to RP with him to do this. Off-camera scenes and +rolls are a thing for this very reason.

If that's a dealbreaker for you, don't play on my game. Problem solved.

[saosmash]

@Caryatid said in Difference between an NPC and a Staff PC?:

I hate the extremes we fall into in discussions here. I hate that the distinction becomes "those who get NPC time and plot shenanigans are more fun to play with!" and "those who don't are boring and if they complain they're jealous".

Ugh. This thread. U g h.

One of the reasons I upvoted this is because like--

It really ISN'T that clear cut. Sometimes you don't get a lot of NPC time because you're too paralyzingly nervous to put yourself forward, or you're hyperconscious of how much story you've already gotten elsewhere, or you get eaten by RL and you come back to the story like 'wait, what is going on?', or because there just aren't enough hours in the day.

Or like, there are people who are perfectly fine to RP with when I have enough energy for them but when I'm worn out I'm like auuuuugh how many paragraphs do you neeeeeeed or like fuck sometimes I am a BRILLIANT RP PARTNER and HILARiOUS and VITAL and other times I barely put together three sentences and oh God how did I manage to use the word 'slight' three times in three sentences, also what even is chemistry and how do I hook again?

IDK man IDK.

[Ghost]

@saosmash said in Difference between an NPC and a Staff PC?:

Like, I've literally been doing this for 20 years and have consistently been able to have sex RP with sane partners who didn't get weird OOC about it

I...definitely don't have that kind of success rate in my RL relationships.

Because damn.

damn.

Like...

god damn

[saosmash]

@Ghost I mean me either!

[Ghost]

@faraday said in Difference between an NPC and a Staff PC?:

What I do pledge, though, is to "provide a sane, fair and friendly environment for you to tell your stories." Part of that fairness means ensuring that Fred has the same opportunities for success as my BFF Mary. I do not need to RP with him to do this. Off-camera scenes and +rolls are a thing for this very reason.

Warm fuzzies. You're a good one. You say it and you do it.

[faraday]

@Ghost said in Difference between an NPC and a Staff PC?:

@saosmash said in Difference between an NPC and a Staff PC?:

Like, I've literally been doing this for 20 years and have consistently been able to have sex RP with sane partners who didn't get weird OOC about it

I...definitely don't have that kind of success rate in my RL relationships.

Because damn.

damn.

Like...

god damn

Man. I can't even reliably get non-TS romantic RP with people who don't get OOCly weird about it. Kinda jealous.

[saosmash]

@faraday THEY'RE OUT THERE I SWEAR.

[Ghost]

@faraday said in Difference between an NPC and a Staff PC?:

Man. I can't even reliably get non-TS romantic RP with people who don't get OOCly weird about it. Kinda jealous.

@saosmash is right. They're out there.

...
...
...

And some of them have quit the hobby, too.

fingergunz4everyone

[Wretched]

@Ghost Obligatory 'Why are you even here man?!'

[Auspice]

@Wretched said in Difference between an NPC and a Staff PC?:

@Ghost Obligatory 'Why are you even here man?!'

He wants our lumps.

[Ghost]

@Wretched cuz there's people I like talking to, and I'm not gone so far that I can't contribute to conversations. And OMG STAHP.

MOAR fingergunz for my people. You know who you are

[Sparks]

@Caryatid said in Difference between an NPC and a Staff PC?:

I hate the extremes we fall into in discussions here. I hate that the distinction becomes "those who get NPC time and plot shenanigans are more fun to play with!" and "those who don't are boring and if they complain they're jealous".

Ugh. This thread. U g h.

Looking at how some stuff's being taken in this thread, yeah, I do think we have a tendency, as a community, to swing to extremes and read one statement as meaning way more than it does. Someone says "sometimes A causes B" and then people swing to "B isn't always caused by A! How dare you suggest that!" That's not what the original argument is. That's not how logic works; "if A then B" doesn't mean "If B then A".

Like, there are so many reasons besides "that player is boring" that someone might not get an on-screen NPC scene they were hoping for. Maybe the GM and the player's RP times don't sync up. Maybe the GM has been swamped and hasn't had time yet. Maybe the NPC is ICly ignoring the character for a reason. Maybe the GM has ADHD and has honestly just forgotten the request. Maybe the GM wrote all the requests down somewhere, and can't remember where. (sighs, raises hand I've done both of those two.)

All "some players can make GM'ing for them excruciating" means it precisely what it says. Nothing else. I have, on one game or another, GM'd for players who make scenes absolutely torturous. They're the ones who complain about the dice every time they fail a roll. They make passive-aggressive metaposes when they don't get exactly what they hoped for. If other characters are in the scene, they get palpably jealous and upset if any other character gets a moment of glory. They're the ones who, when you tell them to knock it off, go sullenly silent, stop posing more than one-line poses, and meanwhile go page all their friends about how the GM is being unreasonable.

My point in that post was just that if we want to say that staff is obligated to give an equal amount of on-screen NPC attention to every player, it's worth keeping in mind that you're telling folks "you must go roleplay with these people". (Or else kick them off the game, but then you get the players complaining "what did they do to get kicked off?")

@faraday said in Difference between an NPC and a Staff PC?:

What I do pledge, though, is to "provide a sane, fair and friendly environment for you to tell your stories." Part of that fairness means ensuring that Fred has the same opportunities for success as my BFF Mary. I do not need to RP with him to do this. Off-camera scenes and +rolls are a thing for this very reason.

This, I think, is an excellent general pledge.

"Fair" does not have to mean "every staffer is obligated to RP out things with every player who asks for something from an NPC". "Fair" does not have to mean "the plot dished out to every player must be an equal portion, regardless of how much individual effort they put in to seeking and engaging with that plot".

"Fair" can just mean "staffers should not set one character up for failure while spurring a different one along; plot actions/requests from both should be treated with the same level of regard".

[Testament]

@Sparks You do realize this is more or less the MU equivalent to an argument against the fair wage act, right?

Maybe that's not the intent, but hoo boy that's how it reads.

[Derp]

@faraday said in Difference between an NPC and a Staff PC?:

This may be an unpopular opinion, but here goes: Nobody - and I mean nobody - is entitled to my free time. It is for me to spend as I choose. If RPing with Fred is excruciating, then I'm not gonna RP with Fred, as player or as staff

Does Fred have any barriers to access to this NPC?

Are you the only one that plays this NPC?

Not all PCs get access to all NPCs for various reasons, but 'I don't like the player' is not one of them. Not for a staffer. You don't get to just arbitrarily decide that a player isn't worth your time, and therefore doesn't get access to said NPC, even if you are providing 'other ways to succeed', because that sometimes doesn't work.

Frankly, if you can't work past a personal bias like that to give a player necessary screen-time with the NPC in question, then I think there's a problem.

If a staffer on my game said that, I'd probably fire them. Not gonna lie. RP with who you want to in your free time on your PC. If you're on a staff bit, you're held to a higher standard. Or at least, I would hope.

[Tinuviel]

@Derp said in Difference between an NPC and a Staff PC?:

Are you the only one that plays this NPC?

The only way this question should ever be a "yes" is if you're literally the only staffer on said game, as @faraday has been for the last little while that I've been paying attention.

@Derp said in Difference between an NPC and a Staff PC?:

You don't get to just arbitrarily decide that a player isn't worth your time, and therefore doesn't get access to said NPC

There's "access" and then there's "must sit for hours reading their drivel."

@Derp said in Difference between an NPC and a Staff PC?:

If a staffer on my game said that, I'd probably fire them.

If a staffer on your game said that, then it's your responsibility to find someone else to RP the NPC, since you find screen time a necessity.

[Scorn]

@Derp Wholeheartedly seconded. Staff PCs are one thing. They are PCs. NPCs are there as a resource for the players in a sphere, or the game as a whole. All players. If a staffer on my team thinks they can pick and choose who to give time with a NPC to based on who they like or don't like, or who they can dole out plot seeds to based on same, they don't deserve to have access to that NPC. Or a staff bit.

[Tinuviel]

@Scorn said in Difference between an NPC and a Staff PC?:

NPCs are there as a resource for the players in a sphere, or the game as a whole. All players.

If NPCs are a resource for the game, then they should be treated as such - specifically, no one staffer should have the responsibility of dealing with it all to their own. So it shouldn't be a problem if one staffer doesn't like player X, when another staffer can slot in and play with them instead.

That's why it's a team, rather than a bunch of independent staffers making decisions to suit them. If you're going to demand people interact with people they have an issue with, then frankly you're the one that needs to rethink the whole staffing thing.

@Scorn said in Difference between an NPC and a Staff PC?:

If a staffer on my team thinks they can pick and choose who to give time with a NPC to based on who they like or don't like, or who they can dole out plot seeds to based on same

These are not the same thing. Face-to-face roleplaying is not the only way to have access to an NPC or their plots, it is simply the one that takes the longest. What about other considerations? Oh, they live on the other side of the world, so you have to stay awake and force yourself to roleplay with this player because they really want it? No, that's stupid.