Getting Young Blood Into MU*'ing

[Griatch]

@Joyeuse said in Getting Young Blood Into MU*'ing:

What primarily keeps me there, though, is just being able to write. I've been trying to piece together attempts at possibly running PRPs because I want to contribute to worlds that feel like they're sort of persistent and living around whatever I'm doing. Some moreso than others, but with the same conceit, without falling into the "Living Worlds" of communities like Roll20. I enjoy writing multiple descriptions, fluffing out different facets of a character who's playing a minor part in a sprawling tale of a city or an entire galaxy.

This board tends to be very MUSH-centric, but it's a wide MU world out there. It sounds like you might find it interesting to widen your horizon and try out a RP-heavy MUD or two, where the world is literally moving on around you. It's not WoD, but something like The Inquisition: Legacy or similar may be worth to at least check out. Who knows which RP style you end up prefering more in the end.
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Griatch

[Prototart]

honestly I think that the more you strip away - no grids! no descs! everything is on the wiki! - the more you basically just make it "ok then why would i want to do that instead of just be in a Discord rp" or whatever

the strength and like the marketing spin or, whatever should be that - like, it's this thing that's more solid and real and complex-in-a-good-way, that it's more feature rich and has things that really contribute to a sense that it's an actual Game World than something transient and impersonal and just, like, basically impromptu and jury rigged

nobody i ever tried to get into this was put off by mechanical stuff, it was always I guess cultural, nobody ever had a problem w +traits or descs or bgs or any of that stuff - and before it comes up basically none of them were pen and paper people, they weren't from Gaming backgrounds where you can go "well they're used to that" the closest my bf has ever been to Gaming other than when I tried to get her in was Pokemon - and sometimes I really think people just try to solve these problems that are mostly imagined or hugely overstated ones bc it's way more palatable than "maybe so many people quit mushing bc of mushers"

[surreality]

@Prototart said in Getting Young Blood Into MU*'ing:

sometimes I really think people just try to solve these problems that are mostly imagined or hugely overstated ones bc it's way more palatable than "maybe so many people quit mushing bc of mushers"

This is a real factor. Like any hobby, assholes in it can drive someone away from it, and none are asshole-free.

A bigger issue, to me, is that expectations are typically unrealistic by default. This is harder to avoid than it may seem, because people creating games, like everyone in the hobby, have a set of unspoken ideas of what the hobby even is. (And goddamn if people can't stop high-horse shit-talking anyone who prefers some other way. This not endearing.)

As a result, when games are created, 'how they work' on this level is not always explicitly outlined. We don't have a particularly good vocabulary to describe the various flavors of games under the MU umbrella, which exacerbates this considerably. It makes it difficult to define the game for creators, and difficult for players to determine whether or not a game is for them when browsing.

This is not a small hurdle.

[Tinuviel]

@surreality said in Getting Young Blood Into MU*'ing:

This is a real factor. Like any hobby, assholes in it can drive someone away from it, and none are asshole-free.

I would argue that it's entirely possible for non-assholes to drive people away as well. Especially when it comes to MUing and other, more insular, hobbies. We've been left to our own devices as a culture for decades, that's bound to cause issues when 'outsiders' try to wade in.

Like any cultural group, we have our norms and our taboos that would potentially make little sense for those new explorers coming into our midst.

[Prototart]

@surreality said in Getting Young Blood Into MU*'ing:

As a result, when games are created, 'how they work' on this level is not always explicitly outlined. We don't have a particularly good vocabulary to describe the various flavors of games under the MU umbrella, which exacerbates this considerably. It makes it difficult to define the game for creators, and difficult for players to determine whether or not a game is for them when browsing.

it's not really hard to define what you want with a game and I don't think it's a lack of vocabulary - it's really not even remotely difficult or time consuming to write a theme file explaining the feeling/feel that you're trying to build and what you're going for

the problem is that the kind of people who tend to run games have next to no ability when it comes to communicating, period; people who default to assuming everyone thinks the way they do, that everyone understands exactly what they mean, and that anyone who disagrees is a simpleton, people who generally cannot by any means be lead to understand that none of those assumptions are correct or even particularly coherent

and overwhelmingly that's just put up with bc it's a culture that tolerates bad behavior and bad faith actors, no matter how egregious or incomprehensible or hypocritical, in the name of "well, at least there's a player base" - i could name games where if you ask 10 different people what the standards for approval are you'll get 10 wildly different and contradictory answers

if people are serious about wanting other people who haven't been MUing for 20+ years to start and then to actually stay, that's the kind of shit that has to be "solved," not "well, grids can get too big"

and tbh I have literally no expectation it ever will be

[surreality]

@Prototart said in Getting Young Blood Into MU*'ing:

people who default to assuming everyone thinks the way they do, that everyone understands exactly what they mean, and that anyone who disagrees is a simpleton, people who generally cannot by any means be lead to understand that none of those assumptions are correct or even particularly coherent

This is what I'm talking about. Too rarely is this communicated clearly, or without sniping. If more games did this, we'd be better off. Unfortunately, there isn't a great way to do this.

Currently, we have a lot of 'this is a game'. Well, what kind of game is it? Is it meant to be a tabletop simulator? Because that's what some people think of, and if it's not, that should be stated up front. (And so on.)

I don't think this is some intrinsic fault of all game runners, an indication of hopelessly stunted communication skills, or any indicator of permissiveness or lack thereof re: bad actors. It's a need to externalize our internal assumptions clearly, which is to everyone's benefit.

[Lotherio]

I think the last few posts are just evidence enough I need to completely retire from trying to run a Mu. No matter how clear I try to be in the type of Mu I'm after, something is lost in translation. I'm the sticky wicket. Just for benefit of runners and players alike, communication requires two parties, whole blame cannot reside on the runner; most of the communication problem is the static in the middle between type of game trying to be run and expectations of players.

[surreality]

@Lotherio I don't believe this to be the case.

While I see the issue, I don't think it's an insurmountable one at all. It's one people need to bring out of the assumption pile and articulate. That may not be easy, but it isn't something I'd ever consider even near impossible.

I also don't think this is a function of theme in any way. Theme is (generic) your story focus, and what kinds of stories you aim to explore on the game.

I'm talking about the how, which is a different animal. It's an important critter in the ecosystem, though, and it's one that deserves a file of its own. This is more the territory of a mission statement, from where I sit -- something along the lines of:

This game is a place to explore the story elements described in theme, through <tabletop simulator/freeform writing/whatever means and method are chosen> and is intended for <all audiences/mature audiences/adults only/overgrown 13 year olds>.

<Brief explanation of what this means.>

[Ganymede]

@Lotherio

I completely concur with Surreality.

I have played on your games. You are a very good game runner. If anything, you should be running one right now. And dammit I want you in on my project.

When I’m done the writing process, that is.

Like any business, you may need a team of people. But that does not make you a poor game runner. Not in the slightest.

I have seen poor game runners. You are not one of them.

[faraday]

@surreality said in Getting Young Blood Into MU*'ing:

I'm talking about the how, which is a different animal. It's an important critter in the ecosystem, though, and it's one that deserves a file of its own. This is more the territory of a mission statement, from where I sit -- something along the lines of:

Yes, this. Even within MUSHes, there is a wide range from "Even more RP-ish RPI" (closer to the MUD side of things, ala Arx, Firan, TGG) to "Really Big Tabletop-ish Group" (Shadowrun, WoD) to "Fast-paced collaborative storytelling" (a lot of the historical games, closer to the PbPost side of things).

All of these are MUSHes.

All of these are valid playstyles.

You could take any setting (WoD, Star Wars, Battlestar, Lords and Ladies) and chuck a game anywhere along that scale. Setting and server alone don't describe the playstyle. Games need to define where they fall on that third axis, and it would help to have a common vocabulary so that expectations can be more clear.

[surreality]

@faraday ^ This, x10000. If I could upvote something a hundred times, it would be this.

[Arkandel]

@Lotherio said in Getting Young Blood Into MU*'ing:

I think the last few posts are just evidence enough I need to completely retire from trying to run a Mu. No matter how clear I try to be in the type of Mu I'm after, something is lost in translation. I'm the sticky wicket. Just for benefit of runners and players alike, communication requires two parties, whole blame cannot reside on the runner; most of the communication problem is the static in the middle between type of game trying to be run and expectations of players.

The last few posts are evidence that MSB is sometimes overly argumentative, and not always (heh) in a constructive fashion.

[Auspice]

@Lotherio said in Getting Young Blood Into MU*'ing:

I think the last few posts are just evidence enough I need to completely retire from trying to run a Mu. No matter how clear I try to be in the type of Mu I'm after, something is lost in translation. I'm the sticky wicket. Just for benefit of runners and players alike, communication requires two parties, whole blame cannot reside on the runner; most of the communication problem is the static in the middle between type of game trying to be run and expectations of players.

I think the issue you ran into (of the two games of yours I've been on recently) is that you were using a system many people are unfamiliar with (this always has issues) and you ended up with a fairly large number of people who wanted the game to be their way, not yours.

Which does mean I agree, to an extent, that it's not solely on the game runner. But you also need to be more firm about putting your foot down and saying 'No, this is how we do it around here.'

If people can't handle you being the guiding hand then they need not play your game.

[faraday]

@Lotherio said in Getting Young Blood Into MU*'ing:

No matter how clear I try to be in the type of Mu I'm after, something is lost in translation.

Dude, I once went for "Battlestar-themed space rescue/firefighters" and ended up with "Sopranos in Space." There are all kinds of things that cause clashes of expectations. Doesn't make you a bad game-runner.

[Tinuviel]

@Auspice said in Getting Young Blood Into MU*'ing:

If people can't handle you being the guiding hand then they need not play your game.

This. It's one thing we all need to get better at doing: Being able to say "Okay, this isn't working out between us. Here's the door."

[Prototart]

@Lotherio said in Getting Young Blood Into MU*'ing:

I think the last few posts are just evidence enough I need to completely retire from trying to run a Mu. No matter how clear I try to be in the type of Mu I'm after, something is lost in translation. I'm the sticky wicket. Just for benefit of runners and players alike, communication requires two parties, whole blame cannot reside on the runner; most of the communication problem is the static in the middle between type of game trying to be run and expectations of players.

i should maybe specify that when i say what i've said i'm almost exclusively talking about comic games, a niche where successful and well populated games have been run by actual rl rapists and actual rl child molesters who were openly known to be actual rl rapists and actual rl child molesters

edit: and honestly, "Well, The Centrist Position" in the experience of literally every person I've ever tried to get to play one is something that'd ring the same as like "well he did shit on your rug but you put it in the room and that's the only reason he could do that so really youre both to blame :)"

like - HeroMUX had 100+ logins and the only priority of the head wiz was finding ways to protect his shitty friends who did nothing but be shitty no matter how many people on staff who gave a shit it ran off, UH is still around & still run by an incel sex pest w a harem fetish, moritz ran a ton of huge games despite creeping on anyone he found out was a teenage girl, there was a game where two people who were staffers everywhere at one point fucking started inviting me to visit them when they found out I was in my mid teens and bi, it's an endless catalogue and i can list on like one hand the places ive even HEARD of in doing this for literally two thirds of my life that weren't run by incels, predators, hypocrites, violent narcissists, people who didnt have a grasp on, like, even the basic fundamentals of how to convey anything at all to a human, or - fuck, literally all of the above at once

[Ghost]

@Prototart said in Getting Young Blood Into MU*'ing:

sometimes I really think people just try to solve these problems that are mostly imagined or hugely overstated ones bc it's way more palatable than "maybe so many people quit mushing bc of mushers"

Ding!

@Prototart said in Getting Young Blood Into MU*'ing:

i should maybe specify that when i say what i've said i'm almost exclusively talking about comic games, a niche where successful and well populated games have been run by actual rl rapists and actual rl child molesters who were openly known to be actual rl rapists and actual rl child molesters

D'Ding!

When people quit mushing (or "new blood" doesn't stick around) it has little to do with the following:

• A lack of comic book games
• A lack of available games
• MU Clients
• Codebase

Sure, making more user-friendly tools would help, but I'm not seeing a constant FLOOD of people posting "I'd love this hobby if it weren't for this codebase, so I have to leave because of this codebase". No. We see a lot of apology threads for interpersonal bullshit, needing to step away because of taking things too seriously, personal beefs, and here are some of the more common hits.

• Player is a perv who won't leave me alone
• People sit on roster characters and never log in
• Cliques
• Someone is slandering my name because they're pissed at me for roleplaying with the character they wanna TS
• I ask people for RP and no one responds
• Players who are friends with staff get special benefits and leeway, and staff won't do anything about it
• Drama. Drama. Drama.
• "I don't talk shit, but this player is complete psycho and has herpes."

I'm not trying to be snide here, but I think that people may end up putting dozens to hundreds of hours of development into new tools and technologies, but it might not matter a bucket of spit unless some of the social issues are addressed and some of these "old schooler" habits are untangled to make the environment more welcoming to both "new blood outsiders" and "normal people who don't want OOC drama". We're talking about a hobby that literally shares advertising space with sex games that allow people to roleplay pedophilia, and people from those games are also coming onto the non-sex games and page-creeping players about how hot their PBs are. THERE WAS A CHARACTER PAGE FOR A HUMAN/DOLPHIN WHO BROWSED WIKI PAGES AND MADE A SIDE PAGE ABOUT HOW BADLY HE WANTED TO FUCK THEIR CHARACTERS BEFORE HE'D EVEN RP'D WITH THEM (and for some people, this is MILD and WEIRD but not shocking!). Some players are really great about wanting stories. Others are just pushy about "getting to the TS part" and will ignore you unless you're fulfilling their personal wants.

I know the social problems will likely be harder to fix (and for some of these people you're talking DECADES of ingrained responses to behaviors), but it's like they say about work: People don't quit a job, they quit the boss/team. I think the same applies to mushing, and approaching this as a matter of "advertising, monetizing the hobby, or purely technology" is a waste of your time.

[Thenomain]

I can summarize what @Ghost said as the player saying, "This is more trouble than it's worth, and I'm showing myself the door."

[faraday]

@Ghost said in Getting Young Blood Into MU*'ing:

I know the social problems will likely be harder to fix (and for some of these people you're talking DECADES of ingrained responses to behaviors), but it's like they say about work: People don't quit a job, they quit the boss/team. I think the same applies to mushing, and approaching this as a matter of "advertising, monetizing the hobby, or purely technology" is a waste of your time.

I actually agree with most of your facts, just not with your conclusion.

Part of the reason people put up with crappy games/staff/etc. is because there are so few games out there. While that's not solely a tech issue by any stretch, it is an issue that tech can absolutely help with. There are good people with creative ideas out there if we can enable them to put those ideas into practice.

And while it's certainly true - in part - that many people who do dip their toes into MUs leave because of personal drama and not the tech, the tech is what keeps some people from even trying it in the first place.

Is tech a cure-all? Absolutely not. But with more games and more approachable user experience, I believe we can get some new players and new ideas and make things better.

[Auspice]

@faraday said in Getting Young Blood Into MU*'ing:

Part of the reason people put up with crappy games/staff/etc. is because there are so few games out there. While that's not solely a tech issue by any stretch, it is an issue that tech can absolutely help with. There are good people with creative ideas out there if we can enable them to put those ideas into practice.

This doesn't, however, disagree with his premise that 'tech is not the answer to getting new blood.'

A lot of the time people speak of 'we need innovation to appeal to people,' it's end-user/UIX. 'If we give them navigation buttons so they don't have to type nsew...'

What you're suggesting relates to what he's saying:

By enabling more people to create games, people can get away from the toxic environments.

This could be done in a number of ways, absolutely. And many of them already exist.

Ares and its MU-in-a-box.
Arx providing its code open-source so people can use it as a structure for their own game (Ithir!).
Theno and his WoD code.

There are other things that get in the way of running a game and not all of them tech. Lord above if tech were the only thing, I'd've been running games for the past 20 years.

The other questions people run into:
Who do I trust to Staff? (and before you open your mouth, @Ghost, trusting someone enough to Staff with them is a whole other bag than roleplaying with them)
What do I want my story to be (and where do I find the time to write it all)?
What do I want my website to look like? (This one is huge and one I don't think enough of us acknowledge: there were a ton more games back before wikis. And a smaller playerbase is not the only reason why. I HATE BUILDING A WIKI and I'm not talking the design. I'm talking the structure and data. I imagine I am far from the only one.)

The two things go hand-in-hand: ease-of-use in making games and the right culture in which to run them.