@Derp seems to agree with me, so to remove the hole in the pit of my stomach, I'll clarify. If you truly, truly believe that someone is putting on a mask like a girl in a nightclub, ask them privately if they're okay. If they say yes, then assume that they're okay and go on with your life.
@Derp said in How to Approach (nor not) a Suspected Creep:
Can you imagine what sort of hobby this would be if all of us were judged OOC based on the actions of our PCs? (Moreso than we already are.)
Every Daeva would be a secret rapist. Every werewolf would be a violent psychopath. Every superhero would be dangerously delusional.
So I generally agree with what you're saying.
But.
The hobby doesn't generally have a problem with players acting on their delusions of grandeur or psychopathic murder rampages. We do have a problem with players tromping over boundaries, harassing other players and just generally being creepy sometimes when it comes to IC relationships. So I don't think it's quite the same.
It's not unreasonable to be alert for these things, and potentially reach out if you're comfortable and willing to do so. It might be received poorly, but that's your choice to make.
But the white-knight with a harem of six different women? If it's all among consenting adults, no rules are being broken, and nobody's being made OOCly uncomfortable? It's not my business.
I think I failed to get my point across well, so let me put it this way:
You see two guys flirting with women in a club.
One is being polite and respectful.
The other is leering and simply exuding gross.
Women are sort of conditioned to put up with both. Many are even going to welcome the former (if they're single/receptive). But they'll put up with the latter out of a fear of what might happen if they say no. What if he turns violent? What if he retaliates in some other way?
So chances are, if you witness this, you're going to want to say something.
Now I know we think: this is just a game.
The issue is... how many people quit games because of the discomfort? How many of us witness this and then worry...what if I'm next? What if another woman is next?
That is why I began this discussion.
Not to see a flood of people go: ugh, mind your own business.
Because I'm not talking about the guy being cool and respectful.
I'm talking about the one whose behavior, the whole of it, exudes slime. Where just reading it and witnessing it makes you feel like something is wrong.
And you can't always just straight bug out. Maybe it's an ST'd scene (and I don't want some Staffer coming over here on MSB later going 'fuck that Auspice for just leaving in the middle of something I was kindly STing, jesus' and then if I TELL that Staffer going 'fuck that Auspice for leaving just because some other player was posing in a way that made her uncomfortable; bitch could've stuck it out for a couple hours'). Maybe it's a scene YOU'RE running. The option isn't always there.
Saying the quiet parts out loud since 1996.
@faraday said in How to Approach (nor not) a Suspected Creep:
We do have a problem with players tromping over boundaries, harassing other players and just generally being creepy sometimes when it comes to IC relationships.
Yeah, that's why I said if there's an OOC component it could be actionable. I'm not oblivious that there are assholes out there in the hobby, and I've booted more than my fair share of those people, as anyone who's actually staffed with me can probably attest. The other side of this coin is that not everything has to have a full-on procedurally correct trial. If you, as a gamerunner, feel that someone is being a disruptive influence for your game, and making your other players uncomfortable, you can boot them even if they haven't explicitly violated the letter of the law.
This is all a game of balance. There's no perfect solution. If there was we would have found it ages ago and this wouldn't be an issue.
@Auspice said in How to Approach (nor not) a Suspected Creep:
Now I know we think: this is just a game.
The issue is... how many people quit games because of the discomfort? How many of us witness this and then worry...what if I'm next? What if another woman is next?
That is why I began this discussion.
Not to see a flood of people go: ugh, mind your own business.
But I hear everything you say and my answer is the same: It's IC. It's not my business, as a player or staff, until it crosses OOC boundaries.
If you disagree with that - that's cool. We don't have to agree. But just because "a flood" of people think "or not" is the answer to "how to approach (or not)" in the situation you described, that doesn't mean we're engaging the discussion in bad faith.
If I'm next? I'll deal with it ICly. If they refuse to acknowledge my IC boundaries and make a pest of themselves, I'll deal with it OOCly - first by telling them "Hey knock it off" and then escalating to staff if need be. Both of which I've done in the past. If somebody complains because their behavior is somehow being disruptive OOCly (as opposed to just unlikeable ICly), then I'll deal with that too. Until then though? Not my business.
@Auspice said in How to Approach (nor not) a Suspected Creep:
So chances are, if you witness this, you're going to want to say something.
No. Chances are you're going to check in with the woman in this example. If you run to her defence without any idea what's going on, you're the dick. You're taking responsibility for people that aren't you. Don't do that unless you know that you need to.
Second, why is your focus on women? Yes, IRL women are more likely to be harassed to the point of danger and violence. But I would argue that harassment is far more egalitarian on a MU*. Would you interfere if a male character was the subject of such alleged harassment?
C) You can always bug out. Always. You type the word 'QUIT' into your client, and leave. If the people involved don't accept that you were uncomfortable and had to leave, then you don't want to be playing there anyway.
IV: You only are responsible for yourself. So be responsible for yourself. If you are uncomfortable, say so. If you need help, ask for it. End of.
He/Him
@Tinuviel said in How to Approach (nor not) a Suspected Creep:
Chances are you're going to check in with the woman in this example.
That's still speaking up.
@Tinuviel said in How to Approach (nor not) a Suspected Creep:
Second, why is your focus on women?
Because in this scenario, it was a woman.
Saying the quiet parts out loud since 1996.
@Auspice said in How to Approach (nor not) a Suspected Creep:
That's still speaking up.
Yes, it's speaking up. It's a very fucking specific type of speaking up that isn't the same as just "saying something."
@Auspice said in How to Approach (nor not) a Suspected Creep:
Because in this scenario, it was a woman.
So? You gave another example, and that too was a woman.
But fine, I'll give you the only correct answer: If you see something, ask the 'victim'. If they're cool with it, let it go. If they're not, encourage them to talk to staff. If they're unable or unwilling to do so, talk to staff. If they're unwilling to deal with it and/or ridicule you, leave the game. It's not a difficult question.
@Auspice So...i guess my hot take is that in RL there is no IC/OOC factor. The assumption is that if the creeper is keeping it 100% IC that the problem can be mitigated or controlled through IC means, and that the real issues come when it spills out into pages, harassment, oocly pushy behavior, threats, stalking, etc.
So, IMO it's just hard to read. IS the player uncomfortable? If you ask Oocly, then the issue spills from an IC issue to an OOC issue, then it becomes subject to all of the OOC bullshit. Still, without learning Oocly, you have no way of knowing that the two players havent Oocly PLANNED to RP "creepy guy and uncomfortable girl".
Theres a lot of reasons why 3rd party is always considered in Human Resources cases at offices. It's totally appropriate to tell HR that the two guys making racist jokes made you uncomfortable, even if you overheard the conversation. So in that light I think it's fine to message staff that it made you, as a 3rd party, feel uncomfortable.
The POINT here is that if the issue is that you as a third party felt uncomfortable by someone else's IC interactions, it's YOUR issue. Dealing with it on someone else's behalf then isn't exactly FOR THEM, but it's your own personal OOC issue based on 3rd party witness and should be approached that way.
Let other people deal with their issues as themselves, but if someone feels inclined to deal with an issue on someone else's behalf, that doesn't make it their issue; it's yours and now the target of the creeping is a 3rd party to a problem that you have.
That make sense?
Delete the Hog Pit. It'll be fun.
I really don't understand He-Man
@Ghost
But by and far, MUs seem to consider 3rd parties as non-entities.
I've gone to Staff in the past to say 'Hey, here's a log/evidence in which my friend tells me that Dude is threatening her and is making her miserable and I have evidence of Dude engaging in bad behavior in other veins.'
And Staff's reply was: well, unless your friend reports it herself, we can't do anything. Sorry.
I know that's not an isolated incident. People have experienced that sort of thing all the time. MUs, by and far, feel that ONLY the victim can report. Witnesses cannot. Uncomfortable third parties cannot. Only the person receiving the harm.
And I guess that's the concern here: even if I page the person being targeted and they say 'yeah, I'm uncomfortable here, can you help me out?' .... I could step in, pose going over to them, buddying up, etc...........but that'd be the extent of it in most cases, sadly.
Saying the quiet parts out loud since 1996.
@Auspice said in How to Approach (nor not) a Suspected Creep:
But by and far, MUs seem to consider 3rd parties as non-entities.
I've gone to Staff in the past to say 'Hey, here's a log/evidence in which my friend tells me that Dude is threatening her and is making her miserable and I have evidence of Dude engaging in bad behavior in other veins.'
And Staff's reply was: well, unless your friend reports it herself, we can't do anything. Sorry.
And this here is a failing of conflict of interest, IMO. Also, though, it doesn't seem to work any better if you report it not as a 3rd person but as a first person.
The prerogative of game owners/staff is to find ways to keep these games running, populated, and popular enough to keep a steady flow of "good players", which by and large at this point are the same 25 or so players and the occasional new player. So this is why issues like this aren't often addressed and staff wait until they feel beforementioned prerogative is in danger before doing anything. Now we're back to fear of retaliation. If you pay attention it's the same bullshit on every game. The only difference is that its a variable length of time until the same players bring up their same old behaviors or same drama with the same players over and over again. So it's often the same unresolved garbage.
This is something MU needs to figure out to evolve, IMO.
Delete the Hog Pit. It'll be fun.
I really don't understand He-Man
@Auspice So... why were you so adamant about this being "what should a player do" when it's rather obvious that what needs to change is staff?
@Tinuviel said in How to Approach (nor not) a Suspected Creep:
I shouldn't intervene every time a snake is involved
Nope, screw snakes, if it looks like its about to bite, I'm reporting
Nope! Staff, he's rp'ing with his snakes again!
I will say that IC is IC but... even absent any <ooc> communication, the exact same IC action, written out in different ways, can be creepy or not. Like, seriously, some people's writing throws red flags all over the place.
Maybe it's just me!
@peasoupling said in How to Approach (nor not) a Suspected Creep:
Like, seriously, some people's writing throws red flags all over the place.
Surprising nobody, I am often made uncomfortable by the writing of others.
Unfortunately staff frown on my constant reports regarding the Oxford comma and ending sentences with a preposition.
He/Him
@Tinuviel said in How to Approach (nor not) a Suspected Creep:
@peasoupling said in How to Approach (nor not) a Suspected Creep:
Like, seriously, some people's writing throws red flags all over the place.
Surprising nobody, I am often made uncomfortable by the writing of others.
Unfortunately staff frown on my constant reports regarding the Oxford comma and ending sentences with a preposition.
@Tinuviel said in How to Approach (nor not) a Suspected Creep:
@peasoupling said in How to Approach (nor not) a Suspected Creep:
Like, seriously, some people's writing throws red flags all over the place.
Surprising nobody, I am often made uncomfortable by the writing of others.
Unfortunately staff frown on my constant reports regarding the Oxford comma and ending sentences with a preposition.
What, are you on?
Delete the Hog Pit. It'll be fun.
I really don't understand He-Man
@Ghost said in How to Approach (nor not) a Suspected Creep:
@Tinuviel said in How to Approach (nor not) a Suspected Creep:
@peasoupling said in How to Approach (nor not) a Suspected Creep:
Like, seriously, some people's writing throws red flags all over the place.
Surprising nobody, I am often made uncomfortable by the writing of others.
Unfortunately staff frown on my constant reports regarding the Oxford comma and ending sentences with a preposition.What, are you on?
In that sentence, the comma has turned 'on' into an adjective so it isn't a preposition anymore. Fail.
He/Him
@Tinuviel said in How to Approach (nor not) a Suspected Creep:
@Ghost said in How to Approach (nor not) a Suspected Creep:
@Tinuviel said in How to Approach (nor not) a Suspected Creep:
@peasoupling said in How to Approach (nor not) a Suspected Creep:
Like, seriously, some people's writing throws red flags all over the place.
Surprising nobody, I am often made uncomfortable by the writing of others.
Unfortunately staff frown on my constant reports regarding the Oxford comma and ending sentences with a preposition.What, are you on?
In that sentence, the comma has turned 'on' into an adjective so it isn't a preposition anymore. Fail.
So you're saying that you prefer the comma before, during, or after?
Delete the Hog Pit. It'll be fun.
I really don't understand He-Man
@Ghost said in How to Approach (nor not) a Suspected Creep:
@Tinuviel said in How to Approach (nor not) a Suspected Creep:
@Ghost said in How to Approach (nor not) a Suspected Creep:
@Tinuviel said in How to Approach (nor not) a Suspected Creep:
@peasoupling said in How to Approach (nor not) a Suspected Creep:
Like, seriously, some people's writing throws red flags all over the place.
Surprising nobody, I am often made uncomfortable by the writing of others.
Unfortunately staff frown on my constant reports regarding the Oxford comma and ending sentences with a preposition.What, are you on?
In that sentence, the comma has turned 'on' into an adjective so it isn't a preposition anymore. Fail.
So you're saying that you prefer the comma before, during, or after?
Fuck you.
He/Him
@Derp seems to agree with me, so to remove the hole in the pit of my stomach, I'll clarify. If you truly, truly believe that someone is putting on a mask like a girl in a nightclub, ask them privately if they're okay. If they say yes, then assume that they're okay and go on with your life.
