Interest in Cyberpunk MU*?

[Reason]

@Dillinger , re: Psionics -- Out of curiosity, is the objection psionics as player characters primarily? Or just a world where yet undiscovered higher orders of cognitive functions and their impact on the physical world as a storytelling device in general, whether or not they are front and center to any actual game play?

I ask because I generally bias away from high fantasy stuff myself, but things like the PreCogs in Minority Report influencing a view into a cyberpunk world don't immediately offend my sensibilities.

[Ominous]

@Runescryer

It's the age old Romanticism vs. Enlightenment viewpoints. Star Wars' longing for a past "more civilized age" vs Star Trek's "boldly go where no one has gone before."

[Deleted]

@Reason The only acceptable psionics are those created by cybernetic manipulation of the brain.

[Dillinger]

@Reason I guess I'm picturing more classic sci-fi tropes from the 50s or 60s. It is pretty pulpy and fantastical. It strays away from hard sci-fi. Like I like to imagine that in the future we actually will be able to augment and enhance our bodies and minds. I think it's possible. Throw magic in there and it becomes impossible to me and less interesting with that one exception being the cosmic horror angle.

[Reason]

@Dillinger I apologize for what might seem like re-asking the same question, but is that because in your view "Psionics" and "Hard-Sci Fi" are incompatible?

Or just that pulp, magic, etc., kills the immersion of what may otherwise be a dystopian Cyberpunk experience -- and so it's more "tread lightly" than "hard no"?

[Ganymede]

@Ominous said in Interest in Cyberpunk MU*?:

It's the age old Romanticism vs. Enlightenment viewpoints. Star Wars' longing for a past "more civilized age" vs Star Trek's "boldly go where no one has gone before."

Or conservatism v. progressivism.

I prefer to consider third options, like the craziness in Final Fantasy or post-apocalyptic fantasy settings.

[Ominous]

@Ganymede

Conservatism vs. Progressivism can be argued to be a subset of the Romanticism vs. Enlightenment conflict.

Chocobos vs. Mad Max is a much more compelling dialectic, though, I must agree.

[Runescryer]

@Ganymede I think of it as Pessimism vs. Optimism.

Cyberpunk is pessimistic by nature. Humans are greedy and amoral as a rule. You have to 'do it to the other guy before they do it to you'. Corporations are the ultimate expression of the amoral and greedy nature of humanity.

Transhumanism is optimistic by nature. Humans are just humans, with good and bad, although most people are basically cooperative and semi-altruistic. Corporations are profit-motivated, but not to the extreme amorality of Cyberpunk corps; and those that are tend to be the bad guys.

Which brings me to another defining feature of Cyberpunk vs. Transhumanism: who exploits your tech for whom's benefit? In transhumanism, you exploit the tech you use for your benefit and personal advancement. In cyberpunk, those in power exploit your tech for their own benefit. Using cybereyes as an example. In a transhumanist setting, cybereyes just give you corrected or enhanced vision; nothing more. In cyberpunk, cybereyes also give you enhanced vision, but also act as a doorway for corporations via constant news & advertising feeds in the bottom of your field of vision, not to mention turning you into a roving surveillance camera that the manufacturer has backdoor access to.

[Dillinger]

@Reason Yeah. They are largely incompatible but hard sci-fi could be on a spectrum. One end there is 1984 and the other end there's Alf. For me, I want to be closer to 1984 but it's not a hard rule. Specifically the Minority Report was an excellent example of psionics I probably wouldn't mind. Just no Alf or Jedi magic or Klingons.

[Reason]

@Dillinger Cool -- I think we're mostly on the same page.

Maybe where we differ a bit is I could probably still get down with a little "Stranger Things" Psionics vibe bleeding into an otherwise focused Hard-CP game. Like, a subplot involving an evil Corp / Rogue Government "off-budget entity" crossing dimensional boundaries with cyber, drugs, and math and royally $#*@ing up stuff for greed, power, and domination?

To me that still seems to have a classic CP taste to it that I could live with.

I'd still want the game to be 'CyberPunk' not 'PsionicPunk' at the end of the day, though -- so I think the right balance involves generally relegating those type of boundary pushing themes to the fringes.

[Dillinger]

I like Laughing Man type hacker based psionics like I think was mentioned. If everyone has brain implants and someone can near magically hack my senses or whatever that would be dope. I forgot to mention Ghost in the Shell as a possible inspiration. The Deus Ex video game series, specifically the only one that I have played, Human Revolution, is also great.

Whether you're really dystopian and pessimistic like in cyberpunk or if you cover more transhuman themes or venture into post-cyberpunk I'll probably be into it.

[Ominous]

If I can run a megacorp that fries the brains of hackers like in Android: Netrunner, I will be happy.

[Reason]

@Dillinger said in Interest in Cyberpunk MU*?:

I like Laughing Man type hacker based psionics like I think was mentioned.

No doubt. I think GitS is totally fair game. In the end, we're all deaf mutes.

@Ominous said in Interest in Cyberpunk MU*?:

If I can run a megacorp that fries the brains of hackers like in Android: Netrunner, I will be happy.

Yep, for sure. Black Ice ftw.

So, my larger take away from this thread so far is that Cyberpunk has some uncomfortable themes (humanity loss, for one -- discomfort in Cyberpunk is definitely a feature, not a bug), and there have been some hard passes, but a number of you would find it fair game.

Are there any objections to the Interlock/Fuzion d10 system itself that seems to be riding along w/ the current CP Red variant of the game? What's been shown so far, at least? Is there anything about that system that makes it fundamentally unfit for a MU*?

My own bias is that there are some sweet spots around either crunchy systems that work well in a MU* and super free-form systems that work well in a MU*, while tapioca mush with some infrequent grapenut crunch can wind up with non-uniform rules applications, and the subsequent hate-and-disconnect fall-out when player expectations vs outcomes aren't aligned due to a lack of consistency can be a negative -- does that make sense? That question could actually be a thread unto itself.

[Reason]

About half-way through w/ coding up a functional CP: Red Character Generation system. System is pretty clean and looks like it supports a wide range of play styles.

I've always maintained that there are really three things essential for a game: +dice, +sheets, and +CG -- and of those, +CG is the hardest to actually code correctly because poor usability will kill it.

So, if I get through w/ the second half of +CG I think there's a game here. Will hold back on making a formal Advertisement announcement until +CG is done, and +dice/+sheet are close to done.

-r

P.S. Sorry for the thread necromancy.

[Derp]

@Runescryer said in Interest in Cyberpunk MU*?:

@Wizz Cybernetics are already inherently expensive, A starting character can't afford very much in Cyberpunk, as opposed to Shadowrun.

And if you're worried about 'inherently gross', then, no offense, but Cyberpunk might not be the genre for you. We're talking about a literary genre where one of the major works, Hardwired, features a character who has an implanted Roto-Rooter in her throat with a targeting system. And she conducts an assassination of an 80+ year old man who had his consciousness transfered into the body of a 16 year old girl, by french kissing the target and unleashing the weapon, which tore all the way down 'her' throat, then buzzed around and pureed the major organs. That's not exactly 'light' subject matter.

What book is this? I wanna read it. Serious question, I love that kind of stuff.

ETA: Nevermind, reading fail. I see it now!

[SparklesTheClown]

Since you're all discussing cyberpunk, thought I'd pop in here with this.

https://www.humblebundle.com/books/cyberpunk-r-talsorian-books?hmb_source=navbar&hmb_medium=product_tile&hmb_campaign=tile_index_6

[Misadventure]

I see the fundamental question of science fiction to be what would humans do or be like given a situation X? That could be technology (replicants or stacks), culture (the Culture or stand alone complex), bizarrely specific situations (Spice) etc.

Cyberpsychosis is a balancing mechanism, but also a way to represent something valuable to roleplaying: a hook, a visceral feel for things a character may go through or experience the effects of. Humanity/Paths in Vampire had a lot of focus for this experience for a while.

I've mentioned is often, but the Madness Meters in Unknown Armies offer that sort of hook. There is more than one, so you can choose many issues to address like

• becoming very different in perspective due to info input from sensors or being invulnerable to what used to hurt,
• entering a psychological feedback ego loop that causes psychotic disregard for life, or people, or the idea of individual bodies etc
• addiction to new stimulus or possibilities
• internal alienation from others
• external appearance or capacity based exclusion/treatment (you look weird, you look built for a specific purpose, people like you are expendable)

Etc. You can also just say that any thematic difficulty CAN have a staged disadvantage you choose to have your character go through. However, like violence and addiction you need to set up how society at large is handling it so the players know what to expect from the world.

[Reason]

Let's see...

CharGen update: Roles, Attributes, and Skills are done. Weapons and Armor are done. Wasn't able to finish it up over Thanksgiving, maybe will find some time over the Holiday break.

Cyber / Gear are next -- really, the barrier to progress is that the process of building the data for all of that is such a manual process of cutting/pasting, it sucks the life out of your soul.

+Dice code is always trivial. +Sheet code can probably be iteratively improved as long as it shows the bare essentials in a usable form.

The more I read the core rules the more I think some automated +lifestyle code and +hustle code for side jobs is probably worth implementing as well.

Anyway, all for now.

-r

[Packrat]

@Reason Some kind of abstracted lifestyle code can work really well actually.

Basically write a paragraph for each 'level' defining what it means in practice and for RP purposes, then also perhaps set out areas and styles people can live in the city with different lifestyle spending.

Then? You can further reduce admin and busy work by allowing people with certain lifestyle levels to automatically be assumed to have stuff and equipment of X and Y costs provided they are not permanently giving it to other characters. So somebody is spending the equivalent of a million dollars a year on lifestyle? Let them just pose having a sports car or use one in high speed shennanigans. If they want a panic room full of regular non fancy guns to bust open when techno ninjas attack their party? No need for them to have gone through whatever system is in use for equipment to secure fifteen sub machine guns.

But the person spending a thousand cyber dollars a year on lifestyle and living in a cardboard box probably has to individually buy sub machine guns, or fancy outfits suitable to attend the party which is going to be crashed by techno ninjas.

[Wizz]

Playing CP2077 has made me want a MU* so, so badly. I am thrilled to see this is still going somewhere.