Good TV
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@ganymede Admittedly, there are a great many animated series/movies that I refuse to watch because the art style is almost painful for me. But if that is the case, then I will state that I'm sure its a wonderful show BUT I cannot stand the art style they chose to use and will likely give it a pass. I may cite other examples of similar shows/movies that use the same art style that I avoid. But I can guarantee none of them are being avoided for their emotional/mental/story content. There are simply certain art styles that my brain will not move past to get to the story, I will get too hung up on the details of the visuals that are bothering me to be able to get into the story.
But it will be very clear that it is not the story content of the show that is objectionable.
If someone is using an art style as an excuse to not watch a show because they don't want to watch a show made by a girl/about a girl/etc. then I absolutely cannot fault you for your upset and anger.
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@too-old-for-this Thanks for wording it far better than I can. That's very similar to how I tend to feel.
Which really sucks, because I feel like there's a lot of shows with stories and content that I'd really enjoy.
What sucks even worse is when it's game I hear about from a friend on Steam, look it up only to see that it's done in a style that I just can't do. Very often it's a game that's displayed in isometric(like Baldur's Gate etc)and I just lose interest so quick.
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I think that not liking a show because of its visual style says something to me. Not liking a visual style is a different message entirely. And refusing to watch a show that means something emotionally significant based on a visual style sends another message.
I can see where you're coming from here, and that's a valid take. But at the same time, it's a message being conveyed through a largely visual medium. I'm not sure that you can entirely separate those two things when it comes to animated series, or television in general. If the medium by which a message is transmitted is jarring or discordant enough, it does have a significant impact on the perception of the message, just like any other piece of art. Picasso painted some truly beloved pictures during some truly dark times that have an emotional resonance with people. I still don't like them. They don't appeal to me, regardless of whatever emotional content they might have for others.
Racism isn't Tinkerbell. It doesn't need you to believe in it for it to exist.
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I definitely don't watch an animated show if I don't like the art style, and I don't care how important The Message might be; if it's unpleasant to look at, I'm not interested. I can get my Important Messages from other media that don't make my eyes weep. That said - I thought She-Ra was fine, art-wise. It's not my favorite style, but it's at least not that awful weird squiggly ugly thing that some American shows have got going on, like all the artists are drunk or hate what they're drawing.
But, yeah, not liking a single example of an Important Show, for /whatever reason/ says absolutely nothing about a person's political or personal stances. I even know people who, gasp, spend their lives working in advocacy for disadvantaged groups who /don't like cartoons at all/. Or fiction in general.
Let people like things, or not, without it being a referendum on whether they are a Good Person.
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They don't appeal to me, regardless of whatever emotional content they might have for others.
As a Canadian, I of course understand McLuhan's theories on media. And, as Gadsby points out, Picasso's failure is not in his perspective, but in his arrogance.
It is not from arrogance that I suggest we all diverge from what we are comfortable with once and a while in order to enjoy the profound; it is simply from experience. I think sometimes we reinforce what repulses us about art styles rather than question why we are repulsed. Because, frankly, I was very skeptical of She-Ra in particular, like everyone else, because of its art style.
It's not that I wasn't familiar with Noelle Stevenson's work at the time; it was just that I was skeptical that her style would translate into what I understood to be a heroic, action fantasy geared towards children. In that skepticism, however, I had the answer for not only why I was initially repulsed but also why I needed to question that repulsion. And it's hard to remember, given the carefully-coded narrative that explores very dark and desperate themes that this show is rated TV-Y7-FV, which means it was found to be appropriate for children 7 and up with a warning of some fantasy violence; contrast this with the new Masters of the Universe series which is rated TV-PG.
I can't help but contrast the content and style of the show with Steven Universe, which was also rated TV-PG. That show's transgressive themes are a little more overt, but its emotional content, in my opinion, is not quite as visceral. The only thing I can conclude is that She-Ra somehow qualified for a younger crowd because it was calculated to do just that. And given what is discussed, the only conclusion I can make is that the rating is tied to how the show appears, along with how well they code their messages (along with changes in attitude from 2013 to the present, no doubt).
Me, I love A:TLA, TLoK, B:TAS, and all of the action-y goodness there. Yes, I still get the feels from those too. And I don't begrudge anyone their opinion on what they like to watch and don't like to watch. After a hard day's work, who wants to watch something unpleasant? All I can suggest -- suggest -- is maybe to give it a shot because maybe -- just maybe -- y'all can find something you do enjoy, like seeing an autistic character portrayed as something other than a Sheldon Cooper clone or a so-obviously-Canadian character that's so charming that you can't help but feel sorry for her.
And, of course, Sea-Hawk.
As for close friends, it's nice when people who trust me with their deep, dark secrets make an effort to watch things I appreciate and learn from.
“It is better to live doing the things that you like. It is foolish to live within this dream of a world seeing unpleasantness and doing only things that you do not like.” -- Yamamoto Tsunetomo.
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I didn't realize so many people were skeptical of She-Ra's art style. I was excited for it from the beginning, maybe because I knew enough about the original series to be able to contrast the feeling of these are people I want to get to know versus the feeling of this (because let's be real, they're all the same character) is what others want me to be.
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@greenflashlight said in Good TV:
I was excited for it from the beginning, maybe because I knew enough about the original series to be able to contrast the feeling of these are people I want to get to know versus the feeling of this (because let's be real, they're all the same character) is what others want me to be.
Maybe.
Maybe this is a little too personal for me, and made a little more so because my girl looks more like a young Glimmer (half-angel, half-Asian) and recently started to complain that she's too fat.
Like, I want to throat-punch her "new girl-friend" so bad, but she's going to school in a couple of weeks and therefore will be removed from this influence shortly.
I'll get by.
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@ganymede I support you in your throat-punching. I'm not totally sure it's legal, but to find out, we'd need to ask a lawyercatbot or something, and hell if I know where you'd find one of those at this hour.
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@greenflashlight said in Good TV:
I support you in your throat-punching.
Seconded. More problems would be solved more quickly with a more liberal application of throat punches.
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@ganymede I understand what you're saying, and I don't think you're wrong. But this is where the struggle lies. Part of my neurodivergency is an inability to connect with a story if the medium is off-putting. If my brain has decided that, say, Animaniacs, has a visual style that is repulsive? My brain will do everything it can to send out bad vibes to me to keep me from watching it. (Which is true. I can't watch the new Animaniacs, it triggers feelings of anxiety and anger) The show could have the best message in the world, but it won't matter because MY brain is saying 'this is wrong, this is bad, turn it off turn it off turn it OFF' and it will get progressively worse until I am so physically tense that I will lash out at someone verbally if they approach me. This happened.
So while I appreciate your saying to 'step out of my comfort zone'... sometimes my brain literally will not let me do that. And the attempt will really only make things worse for myself. I need something to be presented in a format that is either non-visual or that is visually appealing to me if I am going to get anything out of it. Not because I'm trying to be stubborn about it, but because my brain will literally overload me with negativity if I try to force it.
I also agree about the throat-punching. I am happily fat. I eat well, I exercise, and I'm still fat. My belly doesn't go away, and I'm okay with that.
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@too-old-for-this said in Good TV:
I eat well, I exercise, and I'm still fat.
Same.
Can we also throat punch the 'eat less, move more' and 'calories in, calories out is all that matters' people?
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@too-old-for-this said in Good TV:
So while I appreciate your saying to 'step out of my comfort zone'... sometimes my brain literally will not let me do that.
Sure. I understand there are physical and neurological things that make it difficult or impossible to step out of a comfort zone. See, e.g., my comments about my magical daughter. But, see, the way I figure it, you're not refusing to see something because of an art style, you are simply unable to step out of your comfort zone due to neurodivergence. It's not even about the art style for you, and I appreciate that.
Which is a shame, really, because you'd probably really like Entrapta.
“It is better to live doing the things that you like. It is foolish to live within this dream of a world seeing unpleasantness and doing only things that you do not like.” -- Yamamoto Tsunetomo.
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@ganymede That is completely fair.
Edit to add!: I actually don't have an issue with She-Ra's visual style, it actually reminds me of Cowboy Bebop. I haven't watched She-Ra yet because my executive dysfunction can't decide which show I'm SUPER BEHIND on to catch up with first. XD But I will get there!
@derp I'm down for that. I've dumped three doctors in the last year because all of them have claimed I'm fat because 'I don't exercise enough'.... I work 13 hours shifts on my feet every other day. That's a LOT of time spent moving around, bending, turning, lifting, carrying, crouching, standing, walking.... now tell me again Dr. Oblivious why I'm fat? Not enough exercise? Improper diet? Uh huh.... thank you for your opinion, I will be seeking a new physician.
My diet consists largely of steak (cause I'm anemic too, whee!), pork, chicken breasts, green veggies like spinach (again, anemia suuuuuuuuuucks) and broccoli, almost 0 sugar (I use the occasional bit of honey or (even more rarely) cocount palm sugar, and I keep my carbs under 20% of the recommended DV. My blood panels come back so clean its scary (minus the anemia and D deficiency cause I work nights and the daystar is eeeeeeeeeeevil).
But I can't lose weight. Clearly I need to improve my diet and exercise more.
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Saaaame.
I take in like, charts and graphs and stuff with me. It's like 'ok so here is myfitnesspal and literally everything I eat in a day calculated by grams, no I'm not cheating, yes that's everything, inlcuding water consumption. Here is my activity levels from my smartwatch, walking several miles a day for work, and here is the workout that I do three times a week to supplement, so sure, tell me it's because I don't eat right or move enough'.
Nobody seems to believe that maybe, just maybe, there might be another explanation.
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@too-old-for-this said in Good TV:
I haven't watched She-Ra yet because my executive dysfunction can't decide which show I'm SUPER BEHIND on to catch up with first. XD But I will get there!
Get some tissues; you won't want to miss it.
“It is better to live doing the things that you like. It is foolish to live within this dream of a world seeing unpleasantness and doing only things that you do not like.” -- Yamamoto Tsunetomo.
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@ganymede Huh, I'm late. What's the show with the interesting non-Sheldon autistic character, or was that just a for-instance?
Seems like the last (and maybe only) really good one was Will Graham, in spite of Bryan Fuller denying it.
"... you'll find the story doesn’t end how you think, and the most important characters aren’t who you expect.” - Penny 40 to Derek, The Magicians S04E07 ‘The Side Effect’
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@ganymede Huh, I'm late. What's the show with the interesting non-Sheldon autistic character, or was that just a for-instance?
Seems like the last (and maybe only) really good one was Will Graham, in spite of Bryan Fuller denying it.
I believe that she is referring to Entrapta from She-Ra.
Racism isn't Tinkerbell. It doesn't need you to believe in it for it to exist.
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While also totally understanding and agreeing with many of the prior arguments for it, I too am not thrilled with Because of the Artstyle, but only because I hear it so often when I recommend shows that it's just become an instant sigh-producing event for me. Especially when people don't use it to shut down a single show, but the entire medium.
"I just don't like art." Is how I then hear it, and that's when I am feeling charitable.
Side-tangent. I'll retreat back to my anime cave.
