May 14, 2020, 6:26 PM
I think this would constitute strawmanning?
Tips for not wearing out your welcome
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I think this would constitute strawmanning?
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@A-B Don't worry. It's not your fault that Groth used this to go off on an only tangentially applicable crusade, and readers of your thread will not blame you for that.
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@A-B conversations here often turn in to this sort of thing, whether there's name calling or not. People like to get into theory, semantics, different focuses, ect. It isn't bad per se, and probably good to try to not take it personally if things start to wander a bit.
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You didn't start the fire.
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Not everything people have been assuming I did or said is true. I just want to say that. (E.g. there was no "hate-filled screed". I just got despondent at incredible length - like I say, should never have been silly enough to visit it in the first place when I was under that much strain that day - about my inability to get my head around a certain aspect of writing.) You haven't seen either the original conversation in the Spirit Lake OOC channel that they were objecting to or the original message I tried to send Tat. I won't go into details, not wanting to start a huge argument again, but nobody likes leaving statements like that about themselves to go without comment as if they're agreeing they're true. You wouldn't yourself.
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@Cupcake said in Tips for not wearing out your welcome:
And it's not all universal. In the past year I got page-banned by someone completely out of the blue, without any reason given - and when I tried to figure it out on my own, I wasn't correct, though I still took responsibility for a choice I realized was wrong, and as someone with anxiety, having people freeze you out without knowing why is the worst thing.
How do you do that, when you either don't know what it was you did wrong or don't know how you could have avoided it? Not that you've any duty to give me advice or anything, it's not like I'm paying you, but you saying that did catch my attention.
For me, accepting that everything I did was wrong and I deserve to feel horrible - without e
en knowing what, hence it just means accepting that I shouldn't attempt to speak at all to anybody and am generally an essentially horrible person without meaning to be - really doesn't do anything for my mental state at all, and I can't usually keep it up for more than a few minutes without screaming.
Given this, I assume this is not what I'm meant to be doing?
(This one's less of a problem because I do have some idea - I assume that their grievance is either that they were freaked out by how upset I was getting or just that I was taking up too much space in their channel, and I was silly to go in a strange chat, where they don't know me, at all on a day when I was that strung out.)That said? If staff did their due diligence, they at least took the time to tell you why they made the decision to ban you. They may even have tried to correct your actions prior to banning you and giving you some form of heads up/warning to course correct.
As it happens, no, in this instance, nobody told me a dam' thing, either before or afterwards. I mean the only way it could POSSIBLY be true is if maybe there was some strange kind of network glitch that resulted in that message not arriving, I suppose that's possible, though it seems unlikely.
There you are, you see - my conscience is hammering at me to accept that what you said was right and I was told, even though I objectively wasn't.
The best advice I can give you is to bear in mind that while mushing can be helpful, it doesn't replace therapy or psychiatric care.
Not possible, as I've said several times. Booklet somebody linked to noted and will be looked at.
Thanks for trying to advise, anyway, especially since it's not like I'm paying you.
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@A-B Accepting responsibility for your actions and accepting that you were wrong does not mean that YOU are a horrible person, or that you shouldn't attempt to speak to anyone. That's catastrophizing, and it won't help you.
You really need to seek out pro-bono online counseling or consultation with a professional. There are peer support groups online that are specifically oriented towards helping you through those feelings. This is not one of them.
But: Accepting that you were wrong, does not mean accepting that you will always be wrong. It also doesn't require someone to spell out to you exactly how you were wrong, any more than getting a puzzle wrong means that you can never solve the puzzle unless someone specifically shows you every step. It just means you have to take a deep breath, realize that whatever you did then /wasn't/ working the way you wanted it to, and then, next time? Do something different.
I'm not on the game in question, but I'd imagine that your stated action of "I just got despondent at incredible length." made players and staff deeply uncomfortable, and they decided that they did not want to play with you. So don't do that again. You've been told that trying to pursue a conversation with someone about your banning or your behavior is wrong, so don't do that again. Keep a list if you need to, and consult it when you wonder 'what should I do differently'. Observe other people in social situations online, and see the reactions that various methods of presenting yourself gains. Even if you don't, in the beginning, understand /why/ these reactions vary, you can develop an idea of which outputs lead to which reactions.
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@A-B The most important thing in this world to learn is It's not always about you.
You can accept that you did something wrong without accepting that all the wrong is your fault.
When you accept that you did something wrong, part of taking responsibility for that is analysing it and working out what it was that you did wrong. The next part is trying to do better.
You made a mistake! Congratulations, you're human after all. Now work out what that mistake was and try not to do that again. Me, I have a long and convoluted script running inside my head for 'what not to do in X situation'.
And get help with this analysing stuff. Seriously. Find someone who'll help you pick apart what people were saying and what they were meaning, what you said and what other people assumed you meant, and just how it all came crashing and burning down around your ears. Other people do this shit instinctively, but we have to learn. The good news is that we can.
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@A-B said in Tips for not wearing out your welcome:
Not everything people have been assuming I did or said is true. I just want to say that. (E.g. there was no "hate-filled screed".
No one claimed you did. No one. I have no reason to believe you did, either.
That example was in reference to me, as in, 'I would not be excused if I did this, even if the cause is a valid mental health issue I have.'
It is an example of an unwelcome behavior, a legitimate cause for it, and that legitimate cause not excusing the behavior and not absolving the need to accept the consequences of it. That's it.
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There's just too MUCH. Too many possible variables. I mean I see where you're coming from - but are you sure that asking what you did wrong or apologising is always a bad thing? (Faraday didn't seem to think the same. Is that conflicting data?)
You really need to seek out pro-bono online counseling or consultation with a professional. There are peer support groups online that are specifically oriented towards helping you through those feelings. This is not one of them.
I was kind of hoping that online ones existed, being currently not good in person - sometimes it seems there are and sometimes (notably by local professionals on the brief, disastrous occasions they've tried to do anything for me) I'm told firmly that there aren't.
If you happen to know where off-hand it would save time. If not, no harm done. Just asking in passing since, you know, there's sometimes a limit to how much web-searching one person can stand in one day. -
@surreality Oh, fair enough. It looked, to someone who didn't know what you meant, rather as if you'd meant that (like, you know, "that doesn't give me the right to post a hate-filled screed like I presume you did". Thanks for telling me, and thank you more for telling everybody else.
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@A-B said in Tips for not wearing out your welcome:
There's just too MUCH. Too many possible variables. I mean I see where you're coming from - but are you sure that asking what you did wrong or apologising is always a bad thing? (Faraday didn't seem to think the same. Is that conflicting data?)
Asking what you did wrong is not always a bad thing. Asking what you did wrong when you've just done it invariably irritates. Apologising isn't always a bad thing. Apologising and then doing what you just apologised for again tells people you don't actually give a shit, you're just putting a 'nice' coin in a slot, turning a handle, and hoping more 'nice' falls out.
Humans are complicated.
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https://www.verywellmind.com/best-online-therapy-4691206
I've been too chickenshit to take the plunge and get myself a therapist so I can't offer a testimonial or anything, but there do appear to be resources out there.
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So the point of these threads are to...
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Pick on someone who needs help while 'explaining' things to them which is like explaining rocket science to an illiterate with mocking thrown in!
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Mastubtory heckling of an asshole lacking all self awareness that is ultimately pointless because they lack self awareness.
You want the newest person who can't grok it to be better?
https://www.e-counseling.com/alp/therapy-apps/?imt=1&gclid=Cj0KCQjw2PP1BRCiARIsAEqv-pTOGiN2V9lgcfFNgpCLRotQufUnU-gzP3z-7Q_6673Mu94k6_AVM-gaArwhEALw_wcB <--- right here guy, pick one, preferably free if you have financial issues.
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@A-B said in Tips for not wearing out your welcome:
There's just too MUCH. Too many possible variables. I mean I see where you're coming from - but are you sure that asking what you did wrong or apologising is always a bad thing? (Faraday didn't seem to think the same. Is that conflicting data?)
You really need to seek out pro-bono online counseling or consultation with a professional. There are peer support groups online that are specifically oriented towards helping you through those feelings. This is not one of them.
I was kind of hoping that online ones existed, being currently not good in person - sometimes it seems there are and sometimes (notably by local professionals on the brief, disastrous occasions they've tried to do anything for me) I'm told firmly that there aren't.
If you happen to know where off-hand it would save time. If not, no harm done. Just asking in passing since, you know, there's sometimes a limit to how much web-searching one person can stand in one day.The state of online counseling is...extremely variable. I cannot actually give recommendations, because I haven't assessed the efficacy of any of the options. I can only say that this community has a varied step system, from volunteer listeners, to online support groups, to what they claim are licensed professional counselors. They also have some guided self-help things you can do on your own. I cannot evaluate their service or claims, but only the professional counseling costs money, so you might find something useful here: https://www.7cups.com/
Again, I cannot verify or support the above link, because I honestly have no data on their practices or outcomes, and this should not be considered a professional reference or endorsement. But I do hope you find help, and I hope you find a place of peace and support!
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I don't like framing this as a question of 'right' or 'wrong'. This isn't about morals or ethics, being able to effectively navigate chat communities isn't the same thing as being a good person. Some of the worst people in the community have proven themselves to be masters at navigating these social interactions and being bad at handling these things doesn't make you a bad person.
That said most of the advice given in this thread is good advice for success. By trying to be more passive and paying attention to how the others behave you will over time build a better understanding of what is expected.
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@A-B I used two examples there for a reason, both things you did not claim to do that are also problematic behaviors that arise every so often on games.
I don't play on Spirit Lake. I never have. I have no idea what you did or didn't do other than what you claim here, which did not include either of those things.
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https://www.7cups.com/ I've heard good things about this one. It's a community of people who volunteer (and they have training!) to listen and talk to you as needed. There is a paid option for therapy, but the free option isn't terrible either.
https://openpathcollective.org/ This is what I've gone through for my therapy. They scale the cost based on your income. My therapist is all virtual (video) visits, so I don't have to go anywhere.
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I am repeating because I was probably lost in whatever the fuck just happened a couple of pages before.
Why have you chosen online text-based games as a way to stave off insanity from your isolation?
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@Ganymede said in Tips for not wearing out your welcome:
I am repeating because I was probably lost in whatever the fuck just happened a couple of pages before.
Why have you chosen online text-based games as a way to stave off insanity from your isolation?
Online text-based games are one of the more accessible means to learn to become better at communication and social cues. You don't have to deal with any of the difficulties of interpreting body language or the intensely difficult task of figuring out the appropriate time to speak during verbal communication or the pressure of real time communication in general.
It's one of the few places in the world where it's possible to pretend to be normal.
What is obvious to you may not be obvious to me and vice versa.