Diversity Representation in MU*ing

Pacha · Jun 28, 2020, 1:29 AM

@Roz said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:

There are definitely LGBT rosters @saosmash has written. Jasher is explicitly gay, although I know that generally when she writes non-straight rosters she leaves it more "they definitely have same-sex attraction but whether that means gay or bi or pan is up to player interpretation." Lysander is like that, and I know there have been a couple others that now I can't remember off the top of my head. I also wrote Holden as a roster to have a deceased husband, and I leave where on the sexuality spectrum he falls to his players.
EDIT: Oh I also remember Filshiar is written to indicate leaning ace/aro.

Cool, happy to be corrected then! I just never recalled having seen one. Which I suppose it is good that there are some. It would be nice if there were more than four out of however many hundred though. (obviously there are characters where it is not mentioned either way and you can take them either way, which is what I had done.)

Roz · Jun 28, 2020, 1:32 AM

@Pacha said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:

@Roz said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:

There are definitely LGBT rosters @saosmash has written. Jasher is explicitly gay, although I know that generally when she writes non-straight rosters she leaves it more "they definitely have same-sex attraction but whether that means gay or bi or pan is up to player interpretation." Lysander is like that, and I know there have been a couple others that now I can't remember off the top of my head. I also wrote Holden as a roster to have a deceased husband, and I leave where on the sexuality spectrum he falls to his players.
EDIT: Oh I also remember Filshiar is written to indicate leaning ace/aro.

Cool, happy to be corrected then! I just never recalled having seen one. Which I suppose it is good that there are some. It would be nice if there were more than four out of however many hundred though. (obviously there are characters where it is not mentioned either way and you can take them either way, which is what I had done.)

Oh yeah, it's definitely more than four, but however many it actually is, it's a definite minority. Just wanted to highlight some cool rosters, tbh, cause I also like seeing them!

Tinuviel · Jun 28, 2020, 1:33 AM

I definitely prefer the more ambiguous rosters. Much better than Firan's days where someone's dark secret would be homosexuality.

saosmash · Jun 28, 2020, 1:36 AM

I usually try to leave them open to players to decide who they're going to sleep with. I did deliberately sheet several to be LGBTQA, but -- A lot of the time I just don't mention a gender of lovers at all (Silvio is the first example that comes to mind) or just don't mention lovers at all and let people decide what they're gonna do themselves (most common).

What I've never done is sheet someone to be straight. Individual players can play straight if they want, but I'm never going to proscriptively say "and she doesn't like girls".

saosmash · Jun 28, 2020, 1:38 AM

Of course, now Arx's roster process involves creating relationships to other roster characters, so you can expect to see future CGs from me with more canonically gay flirtation, I guess...

Pacha · Jun 28, 2020, 2:00 AM

@saosmash

I would like this. I think my point is that if you read through the available characters rosters, there are plenty that specifically mention heterosexual relationships. I will grant you that most do not mention anything at all, but almost none mention anything specifically LGBT. I get that there were some specific ones that @Roz mentioned and that you have written some that are intended to lean that way. But there is not a diverse representation.

It is kind of like the (and I am definitely not comparing you to her in any other way) "Oh, Dumbledore was always gay and I just never thought to mention it" thing. If it doesn't say it, people can just ignore it.

To be clear, not a criticism of you or of @roz but just a general observation.

Three-Eyed Crow · Jun 28, 2020, 4:29 AM

@Roz said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:

EDIT: Oh I also remember Filshiar is written to indicate leaning ace/aro.

Yeah speaking as the person who picked him up, it was clear to me he was written as non-straight. I'm sorta feeling out how to approach him but I read him as ace with some room for interpretation.

ETA: I also presume he's tried The Sex with both male and female partners based on how his history is written. Again, it's not explicit, but it's there if you're reading for it.

mietze · Jun 28, 2020, 2:57 AM

@Pacha my knight PC is openly bi and has had that on her wiki since creation like over 2 years ago I think. I have seen others as well. But there are a lot of PCs played and unplayed on the wiki, so I am not surprised if someone has never run into one, esp if they only check the wiki page when they're in a scene with someone, ect.

mietze · Jun 28, 2020, 3:06 AM

That being said, just having it on your wiki does not mean that all players do not assume the PC is straight. I had to have the conversation many times with Everyone's Favorite Creeper that even if he tried to create/get with my knight marriage wise it would never be monogamous because she was always going to be romantically involved with other women, and would expect that he not rely on her for romance like ever before he got it through his skull and left me alone about that finally.

But yeah with one exception all of her romantic and sexy RP has been with other women PCs. And I know plenty of other PCs who are the same, as far as same gender romance focused.

Kanye Qwest · Jun 28, 2020, 3:11 AM

for arx specifically i'd say outside the first batch of staff created rosters, all that's really asked is that there not be any hidden sexuality or gender expression GOTCHAS! A la the firan days, like @Tinuviel mentioned. Outside of Sao, who was (probably still is?) the go to roster generation machine, staff doesn't really make rosters anymore. (TO MY KNOWLEDGE). They say to sao: we need more princesses/disciples/archlectors/fishmongers, etc. Everything else is a player submission, which is usually them trying to fill a specific need they have for a position or a family. So there's no, like, gamewide census or diversity control mechanic.

Ominous · Jun 28, 2020, 3:55 AM

I was somewhat disappointed that Arx's fealties were drawn from mostly European cultures, rather than a broader spectrum (East Asia-inspired Crownlands? Africa-inspired Oathlands? Polynesian Mourning Isles?), but with the lands across the sea having some of those themes, I understand why.

insomniac7809 · Jun 28, 2020, 3:58 AM

@Pacha said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:

there are plenty that specifically mention heterosexual relationships

FWIW, a good bit of that is specifically in terms of heterosexual spouses, which theme-wise doesn't restrict a player's decision about their sexuality.

That is, a married character could well be gay but in a political marriage for the sake of the family.

Pacha · Jun 28, 2020, 4:06 AM

@mietze

That's cool. I obviously am not familiar with every character, so I am totally open to the idea that there are examples I was not aware of and actually, we have come up Jasher, Lysander, Holden, your Knight where it is explicitly stated and Filshiar where it is strongly implied -- which frankly is more than I thought there were but still really low considering the number of PCs on that game.

I know that there are more LGBTQIA characters than this IC obviously. There are many many characters where there is no expression of any kind of sexuality in their profile, and those are obviously open to interpretation either way (I have such a character!). Some are sort of strongly coded to be LGBT but it is up to the eventual player whether they are when they come on screen.

I do think it would be nice (especially on a game as big as Arx with such a huge number of roster characters) if there were more that were written as unambiguously LGBTQIA. Because it is nice to know "People like you are present and wanted in the setting" rather than "You can take the character in that direction if you want and nobody will object"

I hope I am not coming across combative here because that is not my intention at all. But it is like the point I made about Dumbledore. It is all very well to say "Oh and he's gay" after the fact once you've sold your books and make your money but you didn't put it IN THE BOOK (and let's not even get into the rest of what a trash person you are). It isn't representation if it isn't stated there unambiguously.

All I am really saying is: I would like it if there were more!

Roz · Jun 28, 2020, 4:09 AM

@Pacha I don't think you're being at all combative! I totally get your point regarding the value of undeniable diversity and the message that sends to players. And having a few examples of it among a roster the size of Arx's doesn't contradict your overall point.

Pacha · Jun 28, 2020, 4:12 AM

@Roz

Thanks!

SparklesTheClown · Jun 28, 2020, 4:56 AM

The Reach and a few WoD games used to do XP incentive things. But ultimately I think that on the topic of basically real world ethnicities and stuff (even if the names are changed), I'm not sure that I would want it to be done that way. Like, if you want to play it you should play it, but it just seems weird to me to have people playing certain races just because there's mechanical incentive.

In addition to that, I'm perfectly fine with the fact that they chose to do a euro-centric theme, because I've seen what happens, even on the professional level, when even well-meaning people try to do a feudal Asian theme or feudal African theme or whatever else in that way, and there's like a million unfortunate implications or just absolutely yikes oversight happening.

Which isn't to say that white people shouldn't do those things or attempt those things, it's more to say that if you're gonna do it you should do it because you want to do it, and I believe the desire to do it should come with some desire to do it correctly. Which, again, I'm not saying no one here or Arx's staff wouldn't have that in mind, I'm more saying that I've encountered, both in hobby and in professional tabletop writing, a grossly high amount of people who enjoy the aesthetics and surface level aspects of cultural things, and just dive headfirst into it.

Like, you don't even have to be like "hurrhurrhurr historical accuracy, rabblerabblerabble!!!". To me, Black Panther's Wakanda is a perfectly great example of a fictional African fantasy society that goes a bit deeper than surface level "who are these mysterious brown people that do cannibalism and worship golden idols and evil gods!!!"

Incidentally, Mwangi in the original version of Pathfinder is absolutely goddamned atrocious and reading it absolutely disgusts the shit out of me. Modern Mwangi in the current Pathfinder is great though, definitely a massive improvement, but original Mwangi is the perfect example of just completely fucking up and diving into some old timey ass racism and othering of an entire fictional society set in fantasy Africa. The entire original setting is literally written from the perspective of colonizers exploring and learning about the "savages" lmao.

Derp · Jun 28, 2020, 5:00 AM

@Ganymede said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:

Disturbingly, while I've seen it more often with hetero couples, if the couple is homosexual they will more likely be female.

The female couple is more likely to be accepted and/or encouraged than the male equivalent. Just saying.

Kanye Qwest · Jun 28, 2020, 5:02 AM

@Pacha aww. yeah it doesn't seem combative at all! Honestly, I'd like it, too. But it's definitely not a dumbledore situation. There are canon LGBTQ+ in the setting. Queen Alarice the first's real love was Lady Caithness. It's explicit in some clues, for sure, though I can't say /remember where else.

Three-Eyed Crow · Jun 28, 2020, 5:23 AM

I remember the backstory of the Riven sword on Arx is like a lesbian love story. But IDK how many PCs would ever come into contact with this if they weren't...the Riven sword for some period of time like my old PC was.

Pacha · Jun 28, 2020, 5:37 AM

@Kanye-Qwest

Yeah, I have re-read that, and I don't think I was very clear on what I meant at all. Sorry if I was not clear.

I was more referring to the idea that because a character on the roster isn't specified either way or is hinted at being but it is ambiguous that you can (as a player) place an LGBTQIA identity on them after the fact and that would be representation. Which is what I meant about the Dumbledore thing. It still wasn't actually that great of a point now I read it again, but that is what I was getting at.

It is nice that there is representation in Arx and in the backstory and clues and so forth. I have had lots of good experiences playing on Arx. My particular point is that I think it would be nice if there were more roster characters that were unambiguously written as being LGBTQIA.

Which, I suppose I could take the plunge and try and write a couple, which would be a positive action.