A thought...
Rather than leaning all-in on PRP, how about this:
When players go through CharGen, they get 'bonuses' from submitting Subplots for the game. Not necessarily subplots that involve their character, but for the game in general. These are then used by the GM's of yhe game to create stories and events to run.
Gives the players some stake in the game, but without yhe pressure if running that might make them uncomfortable.
@ganymede said in MUs That We Would Love To Make (But Won't):
@derp said in MUs That We Would Love To Make (But Won't):
... in the idea that not everyone can GM, I find it incredibly unlikely that those who can't are somehow a substantial majority of players.
No, really, a substantial majority of players suck at running scenes, for a plethora of reasons.
That's been my experience as well. Being able to play a single character well is a very different skillset from being able to run a scene - juggling multiple NPCs, questions from PCs, knowing the theme/rules/etc., managing pacing, keeping people engaged.
It's a lot like being an actor vs. being a director. Sure there are people who can do both, but there are lots of people who can't. Expecting them to do so is not only unrealistic but a recipe for nonsense.
@paradox said in MUs That We Would Love To Make (But Won't):
Even if you have a setting and theme in place, asking someone to come in and run stories leaves a lot of menu options that can get overwhelming. Some people may just want to enjoy the meal rather than cook it themselves.
I think that's a great analogy on expectations. People go to restaurants expecting other people to cook for them.
What do people expect from MUs? It varies obviously but I think a substantial chunk of the players go expecting to be entertained. That's how other games work, right? Most people don't log onto a MMO expecting to make their own quests.
That's a model that MUs have largely catered to for the past few decades. Sandbox games that expect players to create everything themselves exist, but they are not the norm.
@runescryer said in MUs That We Would Love To Make (But Won't):
A thought...
Rather than leaning all-in on PRP, how about this:
When players go through CharGen, they get 'bonuses' from submitting Subplots for the game. Not necessarily subplots that involve their character, but for the game in general. These are then used by the GM's of yhe game to create stories and events to run.
This has been suggested before - basically creating a 'library' of plots, as modular as possible, so that GMs can more or less pick one up from a pre-approved pool.
The problem with that is exactly what you'd expect. 
It's not coming up with the concept that's the blocker. Most people can cook up a "my dog was kidnapped by a goblin, get her back!" questline, WoW-style.
It's running it. That takes more time, effort, following up.
@arkandel said in MUs That We Would Love To Make (But Won't):
The problem with that is exactly what you'd expect.
It's running it. That takes more time, effort, following up.
I think that about sums it up. Having the tools available (bingo cards, random plot generators, actual dungeons they can crawl) is great and I think it can be helpful but I don't think it makes an actual noticeable difference to the players who are willing to run scenes on their own. I would actually say that the people who would use those tools are already the people who would run small one-off scenes without them.
@arkandel said in MUs That We Would Love To Make (But Won't):
It's not coming up with the concept that's the blocker. Most people can cook up a "my dog was kidnapped by a goblin, get her back!" questline, WoW-style.
Indeed, I've tried this on several games where there were plot banks of ready-to-go plot ideas. I can count on one hand the number of people who took one and ran with it. (And I'm very grateful to those people, they're just in the minority.)
There are also umpteen random plot generators you can find in 60 seconds of googling. Ideas are not the limiting factor.
An idea could be match-making GMs. As a wargamer, I will happily number crunch and do the combat tactics stuff... but I am a hot mess with poses and figuring out what effects people want to achieve while only using purple prose. Because there are a bunch of folks who say they have ideas for plot, but don't know rules. There are even folks who don't know the rules for their own character beyond the very basics.
So... let's combine the two! YOU make up the fancy poses, I track the damage and use shiney models to track who is where and what tactics folks end up using.
Or not.
@bear_necessities said in MUs That We Would Love To Make (But Won't):
@arkandel said in MUs That We Would Love To Make (But Won't):
The problem with that is exactly what you'd expect.
It's running it. That takes more time, effort, following up.I think that about sums it up. Having the tools available (bingo cards, random plot generators, actual dungeons they can crawl) is great and I think it can be helpful but I don't think it makes an actual noticeable difference to the players who are willing to run scenes on their own. I would actually say that the people who would use those tools are already the people who would run small one-off scenes without them.
Yeah. I think this is where support comes in. @Devrex 's suggestion about having staff partnering with potential runners, working through mechanics with them, or being on hand to provide pinch hitting support (whether it's running a specific NPC, or what.)
Which is also an idea. When I played on a private pick up sort of MU*, one of the things that we did was have other players play specific NPCs for scenes. So there might only be one PC doing something important for their personal growth, but other players got to play from a stable of NPCs to be involved in that scene.
It's a 'small game' adaptation, for sure, and helpful in that it was a private MU* and so we didn't have to worry about Weird Player X having a meltdown and trying to burn the whole thing down with an NPC.
@pyrephox said in MUs That We Would Love To Make (But Won't):
Yeah. I think this is where support comes in. @Devrex 's suggestion about having staff partnering with potential runners, working through mechanics with them, or being on hand to provide pinch hitting support (whether it's running a specific NPC, or what.)
It's harder to shadow someone running a plot, or to coordinate them so they can run NPCs within the scope of what you're looking to accomplish, than to do it yourself.
If it's an investment in hopes of encouraging a new ST? That's probably still worth it. But it can very easily be more stressful than just doing it, for no payoff at all.
@arkandel That's usually how I see it, as an investment in nurturing someone who might discover the love of it but who might not, and either way for one night at least they're getting engaged and doing the thing. If they even walk away with more confidence to page some other player and say "Hey I think my car broke down on the side of the road near that highway where the serial killer's been operating and I think my cell phone is dead, your RP hooks say you're good with cars, wanna come to the rescue?" then...awesome. The serial killer need never make an appearance even. They've gotten confident enough to pitch a thing that will entertain them both for one night and won't be reliant on +events. Well worth one night spent going "I'd set a -2 mod for that" when asked.
@zombiegenesis That only makes sense if you think of Batman as just, like, a narrative tool. Presumably if someone wants to play him, they want to play and develop the character, which would not seem attractive if you were guaranteed to have to give him up immediately after putting a bunch of work in for everyone else.
@pyrephox said in MUs That We Would Love To Make (But Won't):
Because someone doesn't have to be a perfect GM or a perfect player to have fun playing or running. They don't even have to be very good
And I'd have to counter that with: Except they DO on a MUSH unless they're running for their buddies. Mercer is playing with literal real life friends and his work peers. Not random faceless strangers on the internet who run to bitch boards the moment something isn't how they want it. Vast difference. And ask yourself, who were you forgiving about the GMing stumbles of? Random player X? Or someone you happen to like playing with and had for a while? If I had to guess I'd say the latter. We're an aging population but I'm hard-pressed to say we've matured as MUSHers.
@squirreltalk said in MUs That We Would Love To Make (But Won't):
That only makes sense if you think of Batman as just, like, a narrative tool.
In all the best stories, Batman is nothing but a narrative tool.
@betternow I'm...pretty forgiving with everyone I play with when it comes to actual play. I'm not interested in judging people's GMing or playing ability, and I try to come into every scene with an attitude of 'I'm going to have fun here'.
Does it always work? No. But it's usually because of OOC incivility or behaving in a way that suggests that the other player doesn't care about me being a human being who's just here to have fun (or even see me as a person).
So, yeah, I'm happy to forgive Random Player X when they run something that isn't brilliant, so long as they tried give everyone the opportunity to have fun.
I don't need to play against a grandmaster to enjoy chess. I just need someone to know how to move the pieces in the right directions, and not be a dick about how the game turns out. That's where I keep my expectations, and I end up enjoying a lot more scenes than I don't.
@arkandel said in MUs That We Would Love To Make (But Won't):
It's harder to shadow someone running a plot, or to coordinate them so they can run NPCs within the scope of what you're looking to accomplish, than to do it yourself.
I think this strongly depends on the system and the GM. I have a lot of fun following behind the poses of GMs and setting FS3 NPCs to do what the GM just said they did. It takes some of the burden off GMs who aren't comfortable with the combat system, and I enjoy playing with it. I think for someone who isn't familiar with the system/syntax, having someone do the "code stuff" can take a major burden off them, and for something as straight-forward as FS3, it's very easy to set appropriate actions for NPCs.
With a non-coded system? Yeah, it would be a lot harder.
@ganymede I disagree, but even if that were true, most players would want to be more than that.
A random prompt for experiences and one-shots fitting the setting is not that difficult to code. I can say that because I actually managed (with a bit of help, granted) and I'm definitely no code wizard.
http://keys.aresmush.com -- Come to Chincoteague, we have ponies.
Oh it has been done in many places. It is just that if the prompts aren't updated then it gets stale and less used over time.
@seraphim73 said in MUs That We Would Love To Make (But Won't):
I have a lot of fun following behind the poses of GMs and setting FS3 NPCs to do what the GM just said they did. It takes some of the burden off GMs who aren't comfortable with the combat system, and I enjoy playing with it.
Let's just say that, in my years of playing, FS3 is by far the best system for handling combat scenes with more than a dozen NPCs and PCs. If I wasn't so fucking code-illiterate we would have a Mass Effect game by now.
@silverfox said in MUs That We Would Love To Make (But Won't):
Oh it has been done in many places. It is just that if the prompts aren't updated then it gets stale and less used over time.
That makes sense. Particularly if those prompts have to follow some kind of linear timeline where things need to be regularly brought up to speed. That's a nightmare.
So WotC has lied about this too many times before for me to be 100% on-board. BUT.
A thought...
Rather than leaning all-in on PRP, how about this:
When players go through CharGen, they get 'bonuses' from submitting Subplots for the game. Not necessarily subplots that involve their character, but for the game in general. These are then used by the GM's of yhe game to create stories and events to run.
Gives the players some stake in the game, but without yhe pressure if running that might make them uncomfortable.
