Optional Realities & Project Redshift
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@WTFE said:
My reaction to you right now is not territorial protector mode. It's anti-sales&marketing mode.
Do I come off like a salesman? Granted, I do have a marketing/fundraising background in real life (specifically for the theatre companies I work for), but I wasn't aware that this was a perception of me on this board.
I think the idea that some folks here are so adamantly anti-marketing is interesting. I can relate to a certain extent. I hate commercials. Because I hate commercials, I only use streaming services that don't have commercials to watch television and movies now.
But, there's two sides of the coin to me. You have corporate advertisement, in which corporations follow a formula of throwing money at saturating the market until they sneak into viewers' subconsciousness (there are a few great documentaries out there on how and why this works). Most corporate advertisements aren't even "on topic" or useful in terms of content, because all that really matters is that you think of them first when you're at the store and need to buy cleaning products, or paper towels, or electronics.
But then there is also grassroots marketing, used by small companies. I think about the theatre again. There's just no way that the theatre could survive without a robust attempt at marketing; I do believe it's the same way for games, and for our genre.
The MUSH community has stayed tight-knit over the years, and has been much less prone than other MU* communities to promote beyond their borders. But, what if you did promote more? What if we did advertise more? What if the most brilliant, progressive, hobby-saving minds out there aren't ours, but are the people who don't even know that we exist yet?
What happens in another 10-20 years, when the majority of us are too old and too busy to continue to keep this hamster wheel turning for free anymore?
This goes back to my firm belief that we need to invest in recruiting a younger generation, and in sizable numbers. It's easy to not look ahead, but watching the slow decline of MU*s over-time, I can't help but to look ahead. I want us to survive, even improve and grow (because more players = more interaction, more collaboration, more roleplay).
I think that that demands some marketing here and there.
You want in? You want respect?
I actually just want to have good discussions about subjects more meaningful than what sort of person I am, based on peoples' limited interactions with me. It's like people focusing on anti-candidate smear propaganda (whether true or not) in Presidential debates. I don't care about that stuff. I want to hear about things that actually matter to the greater populace as a whole.
If you believe that there's value in attempting to revitalize our genre by re-branding and trying to create a professional product that's more likely to draw new, younger players to us, then I think that considering professionalism in regards to communities that you run or games that you own/work for is important. It's expected, in the rest of the world.
Sure, the "community as a board of directors" analogy doesn't do anything for me, and it's not something that I personally believe ... but I do think that there is value in good customer service. Just like I think promotion is important. Why?
Because they've both proven, universally, to increase "customer" retention. And for us, I think retention's super important. Nah, there's nothing cool about customer service or advertising. MUSHes have a bit of a counter-culture within the larger community, which is cool.
Do I think that MUSHes would draw and keep more players, over the long run, if they promoted themselves more and had good systems for customer service? Yeah, of course. Those tactics work for everyone, anywhere.
@Sunny said:
I don't really have much to say about the other things noted, except 'what do you mean an interactive fiction game'?
Interactive Fiction is sort of the granddaddy of all of our genres. Strangely enough, it's seeing a resurgence right now, partially thanks to mobile publishing platforms, and folks are producing numerous professional IF again, in quantity.
While it can vary greatly in style, depending on the story, you have two basic forms:
The Text-Adventure: these are the games that inspired MUDs (games like 'Zork' and 'Colossal Caves'). They're basically single-player MUDs, often with a focus on problem solving and puzzles and exploration (though not always).
The Gamebook: these are like Choose Your Own Adventures or Fighting Fantasy. Sometimes, they have simple tabletop-like RPG mechanics for rolling dice to resolve simplified combat. Sometimes they are just a series of choices. Gamebooks, in particular, vary in style greatly.
Arguably the easiest way to create such a game (without programming experience) is with this free engine: http://textadventures.co.uk/quest/
There are two versions of the Engine. One's geared more towards Text-Adventures. One's geared more towards Gamebooks.
I think that a lot of MUSH folks dig IF. I know that RPI folks do. Some of the interactive novels/games out there are really rather brilliant. I'd encourage you to google 'Interactive Fiction' ... you'll find an endless number of free games you can try out over the web.
Hope that answers your question sufficiently.
@BetterJudgment said:
Or feel that they are important. It's all game-playing in one form or another, and this "I'm a professional" schtick is part of the administrator game. It's a business simulator without the risks of running a real business.
I wish that that were true, sometimes. There are some very real risks for what we're doing, precisely because we are a business. We don't make any money off of Optional Realities (that's not a business), but the game REDSHIFT is a professional endeavor. We're paid a regular rate for it. There's real capital invested, and real risk being taken. To be fair, that risk is largely @Jeshin's. However, we both believe (as I talked about earlier) that it's important for our genre that new, high quality, "professional" games are released. I think it's the best way to attract young, new players for the next generation.
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@Jaunt said:
My reaction to you right now is not territorial protector mode. It's anti-sales&marketing mode.
Do I come off like a salesman? Granted, I do have a marketing/fundraising background in real life (specifically for the theatre companies I work for), but I wasn't aware that this was a perception of me on this board.
I think the idea that some folks here are so adamantly anti-marketing is interesting. I can relate to a certain extent. I hate commercials. Because I hate commercials, I only use streaming services that don't have commercials to watch television and movies now.
Yes, you guys come off like salesmen (when you in particular aren't coming off as Internet Avenger Righting Wrongs, but that's just stupid and you don't seem to be doing it just now). This is the advertising forum, so it's not like that's unexpected and kind of what it's for. But you also occasionally come off as bad, pushy salesman who can't read, "I've heard your pitch, now stop making it" cues. I thought pulling back on the update postings to once a month was a good start.
I'm not anti-commercials, but I work at a Too Big To Fail and am immersed in corporate bullshit all day, and reading an amateur version of some of that stuff weirdly transposed in a hobby forum is...well, to me it's a bit funny, because I recognize most of it and know when to just start ignoring it, but to some people it might be annoying.
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@Jaunt To toss in my own two cents once more... I understand that you've dipped a few toes into the WORA/MSB pool here and there. But that doesn't mean that you -know- us. Nearly everyone here has been rubbing elbows with one another pretty consistently for years. We've played with each other on games, poked at each other on the forums, shared ideas and thoughts and opinions. And I'm fairly confident in stating that the vast majority of us have, at some point, gone full retard on either WORA or MSB and still managed to come out on the other side intact. I'm not suggesting you be a robotic loudspeaker broadcasting the latest trends and updates for OR. I'm suggesting that you take the time and effort to really become part of the community. Learn about the people here. We have threads all over the place dedicated almost solely to sharing stuff we like or find awesome or hate or peeve on. We all had to, over time, pick up on the cues and tics of the community. That's sort of where you're at. You've lurked around here and there, you've made a couple posts, but you're still sitting at the fringes. Plenty of veterans of the community have gotten off to a bad start and had to work their way back up the ladder. The real question is whether you're willing to invest that kind of time and effort. Oh, and whether or not you can grow a thick skin. That's one thing that's pretty much a requirement around here. We snark. We flame. We yell and curse and argue. And then we generally find a common ground and move on until the next time.
None of this will happen overnight, or even in a week or two. But over time you'll find yourself just sort of... integrating into the community. Find other topics in other threads to branch out into. I realize that you and Jeshin and.. crayon (I think that's the third guy?) are all kinds of excited about your site... but if that's the ONLY thing you ever talk about eventually it'll get boring to people. We have geeks and nerds of every flavor here, chances are good you can find other threads that interest you. And other people that share those interests. At the end of the day, if you want to integrate, you can't just be 'that OR guy who only ever talks about OR'. Go forth, share your interests, connect, and leave OR/PR in this thread. I think you'll find that people here are pretty forgiving when you seem more like a person and less like an adbot. We've got coders, gamers, music-lovers, tv show followers, lawyers (hi @Ganymede!), parents, techs, and everything in between. Find some of that common ground!
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I think the basic premise here is that none of the Optional Realities crowd (except maybe @Jeshin?) have interacted with the rest of the community on any thread other than this one; and even if they have here and there, not to an extent that it's noticeable and makes them feel part of the community.
So if you want to be part of the community, you need to actually, you know, take part in it, not just the very small sub-section of it that promotes your own thing elsewhere.
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@Coin said:
I think the basic premise here is that none of the Optional Realities crowd (except maybe @Jeshin?) have interacted with the rest of the community on any thread other than this one; and even if they have here and there, not to an extent that it's noticeable and makes them feel part of the community.
So if you want to be part of the community, you need to actually, you know, take part in it, not just the very small sub-section of it that promotes your own thing elsewhere.
My feeling is this. Until I feel like I'm able to have a conversation with folks here without it going off the rails and becoming personal, I'm not going to shit up your other threads with my outsider opinions when it's just going to offend people. If I feel like this thread can be steered back towards positivity, then I'll be likely to branch out.
Oh, and whether or not you can grow a thick skin. That's one thing that's pretty much a requirement around here. We snark. We flame. We yell and curse and argue.
It's not about whether or not my skin is thick enough, to me. I'm very capable of giving as good as I get.
I just am not interested in that style of discussion, if the point is actually about discussion. I'm interested in thoughtful discussion that isn't marginalized by flaming. I know that that doesn't jive with this community's philosophies sometimes, but that's my perspective on things.
Currently, I'm going to try to see if I ignore flaming, whether or not that will help keep discussion on topic. I've tried a few other tactics. We'll see how this goes.
but if that's the ONLY thing you ever talk about eventually it'll get boring to people.
Do you feel as though my last two (large) posts were only about OR, or do you feel like I'm trying to discuss larger issues that affect this community too? The later is certainly what I'm trying to do.
I still feel like the ideas that I'm posting about are being overlooked as the conversation continues to be about me, specifically ... which is honestly far less interesting than the future of our genre.
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@Jaunt said:
@Coin said:
I think the basic premise here is that none of the Optional Realities crowd (except maybe @Jeshin?) have interacted with the rest of the community on any thread other than this one; and even if they have here and there, not to an extent that it's noticeable and makes them feel part of the community.
So if you want to be part of the community, you need to actually, you know, take part in it, not just the very small sub-section of it that promotes your own thing elsewhere.
My feeling is this. Until I feel like I'm able to have a conversation with folks here without it going off the rails and becoming personal, I'm not going to shit up your other threads with my outsider opinions when it's just going to offend people. If I feel like this thread can be steered back towards positivity, then I'll be likely to branch out.
Then you're never going to manage it. We're never going to actually look at this thread favorably if it stands as a testament to you guys wanting to promote your own project without being able to engage in ours. If you're scared of posting on another thread and mucking it up... welcome to MU Soapbox, please take a complimentary helmet.
Every single time any of us post our personal opinions on these forums we are opening ourselves up to everyone else disagreeing and calling us out on our potential shit. If you had actually looked through the forum in detail, you'd see I get into opinionated verbal scuffles with tons of people on some threads, and get along just fine with them on others. Hell, @Miss-Demeanor and I disagree constantly (likely because she loves to argue--potentially the one thing she won't argue with me about) and yet I'm pretty sure if I open up a chat box with her and say 'Hi', she'll be totally cool with chatting about whatever. I disagree with @Arkandel or our dearly desk-flipping, indignantly-quitting @HelloRaptor all the time. I can still talk to them amiably whenever. They're friends--or at least amicable acquaintances.
If you're worried about shitting on our other threads because you still haven't been able to make this one work? You're approaching this entire community in the wrong way.
Dive in and take it like the rest of us, or don't complain that we don't integrate you.
"Excuse the hell out of you. He's a bag of dicks. I'm a carefully curated box of cocks." -- to @GirlCalledBlu upon being misrepresented.
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I don't mind arguing. In fact, I love it. What I meant was that I don't feel confident that any conversation I have on this board will be about the ideas that I'm arguing instead of about me, personally.
Case in point, we're still talking about me right now.
But, since we are, I'll clarify.I'm just not interested in doing "this" over multiple threads. So, whether or not I will "integrate" has more to do with my perception than it does yours. If I think that there's value for me in taking part in other threads, then I'll definitely do so.
But, I'm a busy guy. I'm working on two games, a graphic novel, I perform and I direct, I program and I preach on multiple communities (usually with better results than I've had here, so far). I have a deep wealth of experience (as a player and as a programmer and a designer) in many sub-genres of our communities, including this one. I'm progressive. I'm actually sort of an awesome person to have in your community, in most cases.
But I'm not sold on getting more involved with MSB than this thread, yet. My perception of whether or not this thread can generate the sort of discussion that I'd actually be into spending MORE of my limited free-time pursuing is the sticking point for whether or not I'll become more involved with MSB.
I don't think it's the end of the world for me, or for you, if I don't. For the time being, I'm investing an hour or so a day into MSB via this thread, so that I can make that call.
That's a significant investment for me.
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Then you're not really going to get through to us in the way you seem to want. Just how it is.
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@Coin said:
Then you're not really going to get through to us in the way you seem to want. Just how it is.
That's fair, and I appreciate the honesty.
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@Jaunt I noticed how you mentioned MUSHes and customer service. I can't speak for everyone else, because my RPing background is insanely broad and looks like complete nonsense. But in MUSHes I don't think it's generally seen as super professional staff leading the players like customers and such.
Don't get me wrong, there is -some- level of professionalism expected. There are certain lines that staff are expected not to cross, or else they lose the trust of the players. But I think that when it comes to MUSHing (Which I'm kind of using as a general term because when I say MU* this forum's dumb code hates me), people are probably more inclined to trust people who see themselves as just players with extra responsibility.
In MUSHing, it's less customer service, and more, "Can I trust this person to solve a problem/not be a dick/not post shit on MUSB". Ultimately, we're a community, and if not friends then at least mutual friend-like people who just want to enjoy a hobby.
If you think of it like politics, you come out better by being Jimmy Carter or Bill Clinton rather than Lyndon B. Johnson or Bush Sr.
I know fuck-all about Lyndon B. Johnson outside the context of Kennedy, but I know he seems stiff as fuck and I don't wanna hang out with him.
Overall, my point is to just be loose, chill, relax. People want to see you as a person before an administrator.
Take a hint from the greatest Japanese idol producer of all time, Tsunku.
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@HelloProject
That's a really good, interesting point. It's something that I've definitely thought about.
MUSHes are really about creating co-operative interactive fiction (through roleplay). They use soft-code to let players have the ability to do things that other games would only allow GMs to do. And so, because of that, there's less of a sense of "I created this game, I'm responsible for this game, and other people are players" and more of a sense of "I created this game so that I can play it with other people, and we're all responsible for it."
I definitely get that.
Do you think, though, that a MUSH would benefit and grow if it was led by an administrator with a good sense of customer service promoting their community/game to new potential players? Or available to help new players overcome the learning curve by using customer service techniques? Or responsible for addressing player concerns with customer service techniques?
Do you think that you can hold onto the sense of "we're a relaxed group of friends writing fiction and roleplaying together", and still benefit from taking a customer service approach when something needs to be official?
I don't think the two ideas need to be mutually exclusive. I think that there are great times to be casual and accessible, and important times to be official. I've said it before, but:
What happens in 10-20 years when most of us aren't doing this anymore? Is it important for us to pass the torch? If so, how can we build a big enough community of young people to take over our hobby for the next generation?
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I'm into MU*ing (not just the MUSH subset) because I want to pass some time in a pretendy fun-time game. I'm definitively not in it for creating a legacy. If MU*ing dies (more) I'll just switch to any number of a million other hobbies that can attract my attention. Maybe I'll finally learn how to play this damnable ε for example. Or I'll join my son in making a monstrous Lego(-alike) robot to terrorize the neighbourhood kids with. Or I'll learn to solder and start making fun electronic toys from scratch instead of farming off the work to assembly houses. Or I'll finally get down to actually writing those ideas for a novel that have been stuck in my head for the past decade. Or I'll learn δΉ¦ζ³. Orβ¦ I think you're getting the drift here.
I totally get and respect that you have other goals; that you want some kind of legacy to leave behind. I don't. I doubt I'm in the minority. I'm pretty sure most of us here play to have fun for a few hours pretending to be someone else.
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@Coin said:
I disagree with @Arkandel or our dearly desk-flipping, indignantly-quitting @HelloRaptor all the time.
To be fair, it wouldn't happen as often if you weren't wrong all the time.
But yes, if anyone is thin skinned enough around here to worry about people disagreeing with them... boy are they in the wrong place.
- He who takes offense when not intended is a fool. He who takes offense when intended is a greater fool.
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@Arkandel said:
@Coin said:
I disagree with @Arkandel or our dearly desk-flipping, indignantly-quitting @HelloRaptor all the time.
To be fair, it wouldn't happen as often if I weren't wrong all the time.
But yes, if anyone is thin skinned enough around here to worry about people disagreeing with them... boy are they in the wrong place.
FTFY.
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And how you feel in regards to it is totally understandable. I think of games (and MU*s) as an art form. A lot of folks do argue that they just aren't as relevant any more, and will only become less relevant in the future. I think that that can be true, but that it doesn't necessarily have to be true.
I'll point at Opera again. Why the hell are people still watching baroque operas from the early 1600s? Theatre before the mid-1800s didn't even have subtext; characters always said, back then, exactly what they meant. Most people can't easily relate to 1600s European politics or its social climate. So, how has Opera survived?
Well, it's adapted. It's promoted itself, aggressively. And while I don't think that it's a strong approach to good storytelling, I'm glad; Opera has its own sort of unique beauty. And it's survived by the support of a small, but passionate minority. There are plenty of older art forms (whether it's visual art, performance art, or literature) that have not survived. And that's a shame.
I see MU*s, and RPIs/MUSHes in particular, the same way. There isn't a real replacement for the sort of storytelling that we do here. I think it's important, and that's why I feel the way that I do.
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@Jaunt said:
MUSHes are really about creating co-operative interactive fiction (through roleplay). They use soft-code to let players have the ability to do things that other games would only allow GMs to do. And so, because of that, there's less of a sense of "I created this game, I'm responsible for this game, and other people are players" and more of a sense of "I created this game so that I can play it with other people, and we're all responsible for it."
(Just addressing this bit first, 'cause there's a lot to say on each of these things and time is limited.)
From my perspective alone, this is one of those situations in which I'd say: "there are levels" and it's really a fusion of both.
First, it's generally not an "I" creating a game. This may be assumed but it's worth noting it shouldn't necessarily be. I'm doing a fairly absurd amount of work putting one together now, but I am absolutely not doing it alone. (It's also worth noting that the people who are also contributing their time and energy to the project are folks I've met here for the most part, all of whom have contributed in equally important ways, from my perspective, just for the asking and some volunteered. Others provided advice and tutorials that helped get everything started.)
This is actually pretty big, and it's something that shouldn't be discounted.
The reason I say it's a fusion of both is that, after swapping in 'staff's' for I in the first statement, it tends to be the case. I wouldn't, for instance, put this much time and energy into creating a game I had no interest playing on at some point as well.
Here's why: when it comes to world-building, to do it well, you have to love those basic building block ideas enough to give them enough meat on their bones to provide story hooks in abundance, even the ones that have no appeal to you at all.
I can offer a direct comparison here on this specific point.
The MOO @il-volpe and I both worked on many moons ago, Ghostwheel, was heavily automated. I was a builder there, which meant I could create small areas on grid with their own flock of roaming monsters and the like. I'll call it 'Zombie Swamp' for simplicity. It took about a week to create and populate the first area I put together, since it required only a basic concept to really get the point across, and some fairly decent descriptions for the places and the creatures in them to convey all the thematic elements that were required. There was stuff to do enough to keep folks busy and enjoying themselves with that. Minimal research was required, and it wasn't too tough.
The MUX I'm working on has no roaming monsters to hack away at and keep folks busy. If I was building 'Zombie Swamp' there (which I'm not, sorry to disappoint, y'all!) the things I'd need to do to keep Zombie Swamp an interesting space to play would be entirely different. More research would be involved to offer up relevant story action hooks. Different kinds of code -- ambiance emits and similar -- might be needed. More attention might need to be paid to the descriptions of the areas to give people things to improv with. More information would be needed to provide story-runners with the tools they need if they want to have a horde of zombies swoop down on the players and essentially let the players do the 'go to Zombie Swamp and kill zombies' thing that's automatic in the MOO version and requires no input from anything but the game itself to do as a solitary activity.
Essentially, I need to do different kinds of work to keep the MUX and MOO versions of Zombie Swamp interesting to players. The MOO version more or less tells its own story. The MUX version requires multiple people to tell a story in it.
Each of these approaches has its own benefits and drawbacks. The MOO version's story, to me, was considerably more limited, because attempts to tell any story other than hunting zombies there was severely impeded by constant invasions of respawning zombies. On the MUX version, people can more readily experience other stories in that space -- but they can't do so without a story-runner handy to run the zombies if they want to hunt zombies. To have anything worth doing there, they need information about the zombies if someone is willing and able to run them for others, but they also need a pile of alternate story hooks worth exploring.
One of the reasons I bring this up is perhaps not immediately obvious, but it's important: it's harder to yell at the automated code for something than it is to yell at a person. Code doesn't give a crap. A person (staff or player) running a scene is immediately accessible for yelling at or arguing with, even if the result -- a bad roll of the dice/turn of whatever randomizer is in play -- would have the same results in both scenarios.
From my perspective, the more authority one takes on, the more responsibility one takes on. Though all have some measure of responsibility, it is far from equal.
Players have the responsibility to accept the outcome of dice rolls and the rules of the game without code enforcing it automatically, thus giving them no option not to. They still don't have the option not to per the rules unless it's a consent-based game, but there's no coded 'force' applied to ensure "fair play". Players, essentially, have the responsibility to play fair, but other than 'behave like something other than a shrieking howler monkey or nasty jackass', there's not a lot more to it than that on the player level.
Story-runners, regardless of whether it's a staff member or player serving in that role, need a better grasp of the rules than the players necessarily need to have, because they are taking the place of the automated mechanics. They also have the responsibility to apply those mechanics as fairly and impartially as the code would (as much as any human can; some argue this is impossible), with no preference given to their friends and no disadvantage to others.
Staff... that's another post for another day with less data entry to do.
The primary benefits I can see in the MOO approach are that it's possible to do something as a solitary effort if one wishes, and that you don't need someone else around who knows how to run a scene involving something other than improvisational interactive fiction to do that specific thing: hunting zombies.
The primary benefits I can see in the MUX approach are that a broader range of stories can be told in the same grid space, even if it takes work to provide the hooks to allow for this. It also means the players can find creative solutions at times to problems the code hasn't taken into account, and an automated system may not provide for.
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@Jaunt There's nothing wrong with employing professional techniques when you're dealing with official business, like, say, solving a dispute or making an official ruling that could affect an entire game's future or something. As far as customer service techniques specifically, it very much depends on how you do it.
But I think the most important aspect of being staff in a game is simply not being afraid of making necessary decisions, and being able to quickly determine when those decisions are necessary. You can keep customer service techniques in mind when dealing with players, especially when it comes to customer service ethics (I've read a lot of textbooks while helping people with college homework >_>), but you also want to remain accessible.
If you come off as -too- authoritative, it can make you difficult to approach. I know a lot of players who have dealt with -very- strict staff members, and as a result became downright afraid of directly interacting with staff unless they feel it's absolutely necessary. Some staff aren't even bad, necessarily, they just make themselves seem unapproachable because they're staff first, people second.
@Thenomain, even though you haven't had the best interactions with him, is a good example of this. If you don't know really know him, he just seems like the super serious coder who you're afraid to directly approach because you're not really sure if he's cool with that or not. Unless one posts or reads these forums, it's difficult to get a read on how approachable he is. He doesn't really talk much on his coder bit, and he seems to often keep his characters a secret.
Granted, this doesn't make @Thenomain a bad staffer, he's a hard worker. And as a coder he's not really under any obligation to interact with players. But if he was, say, the headwiz, or had to directly deal with player relations, being approachable would be very important if you want players to come to you with problems or suggestions to begin with. I've been in games where staff react negatively to suggestions or even -constructive- criticism about a game (Not just MUSHes, but some less-than-great MUDs too).
Presenting yourself as approachable, but keeping the customer service tools in the back of your mind for when they're actually necessary, is really a good balance.
As for other things you mentioned, there are things that we as a community could do re: promotion, that I don't really see done, like, almost ever. We promote within our own community, but I don't see people attempt to promote in other thriving communities of RP. I'd say that at this point, MUing is a small fraction of the role-players on the internet. There is a definite benefit to promoting outside of our community.
Hell, I started MUing because a friend invited me to a DBZ MUD. Before that I was roleplaying in Byond Tabletop, chatrooms, and some forums. So, yes, I believe it's possible to grow the hobby. I see new players drip into it all the time, despite cries of the hobby being dead/dying.
Also, being newbie friendly generally involves being approachable, and having created your game to be a newbie friendly environment. This is a combination of both community -and- game design, and is a pretty complicated topic. But in the end, being newbie friendly and promoting to the outside means explaining things in very plain language and pitching it somewhat casually.
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@Coin I
you even when we argue heatedly. Maybe moreso because we CAN and still be cool with each other. And yes, you're right. 
@Jaunt The thick skin isn't about 'giving as good as you get'. Its about being able to take what's being flung at you without letting it bother you to the point you feel the need to retaliate in kind. That's just a slap-fight, and while most of us will grab the popcorn and snicker as shots are fired... its not all that productive. And we are trying to be more productive with MSB overall.
Frankly, to me, the majority of yours, Jeshin's, and crayon's posts have read like radio instructions to me. ie. they're very dry and technical and my interest wanes pretty quickly after that. If they aren't parched dissertations about something, they tend to read like the script for an ad on tv. And since I watch all my shows on Hulu, Netflix or the like to avoid commercials, I think you can see why I would tend to skip over those as well.
There's numerous threads that theorize why our little corner of the hobby seems to be dying out and what factors are affecting our community, but most of them tend to approach it from a more conversational angle than this thread does. This thread is more like... being at a lecture. Our 'genre' as you put it, is about people. The staffers, the players, the coders, and game creators... all people. So yes, you're more interesting of a topic right now.
As to MU*ing and 'customer service skills'... I am a CSR. Its what I do. Do I want to log out of my work and go... deal with more work? Not particularly. Not to mention, most customer service is about as personable as a wet mop. It tends to be scripted, with a few specific responses geared towards a particular end (getting to the next customer, keeping people sticking with your company for the least amount of actual effort, etc.).
You talk about customer service skills like there's something good about them. Here's your average set of customer service skills: Automatic deflection of fault onto the customer. Meaningless apologies to cover ineptitude. An inability to actually achieve the result sought because you lack the proper authority. Being shunted around to 3-5 different people for the same problem. Being forced into horrific wait times on any and everything because only one person knows how to actually fix half the problems.
Customer service skills already exist in nearly every MUSH I've been on. Its terrible. Its what has lead me to NOT get into any of the plots or storylines, because I don't want to have to deal with that in what little free time I have. Hell, at this point, I go out of my way to avoid contact with the vast majority of staff altogether. I'm tired of being put on hold while someone goes to look something up, then forgets that I'm on hold. I'm tired of waiting 7-10 business days for a response to a fairly simple question. I'm tired of everything being automatically my fault until I can produce some sort of proof otherwise. And I'm very tired of dealing with people who think its okay to be snarky and condescending to me because THEY have the authority and I'm just one of the poor schlubs who is the reason they have that position in the first place (ie. no players = no need for staff, or in CSR terms, no customers = no customer service representatives). Customer service exists in MU*s. And it needs to STOP.
(And no, I am not saying EVERY SINGLE staffer is like this... there are staffers that I love to pieces for how awesome they are. But the latter is definitely outweighed by the former.)
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@Miss-Demeanor said:
@Coin I
you even when we argue heatedly. Maybe moreso because we CAN and still be cool with each other. And yes, you're right. Quoting this so she can't go back on it later. #winning
