Optional Realities & Project Redshift
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As to automated systems, I agree to an extent, that coded systems do not represent all possibilities and cannot. As I noted a little further up on TSOSmud the accepted method of player conflict was collaborative emote/pose with a staff judge if one was needed or coded combat if that was choosen. I staffed on such a game for 10 years and while I believe coded systems can add to the experience and immersion I do not think they are always the best first choice options.
Does coded systems limit imagination? Perhaps it could. I have never personally felt myself limited by coded systems and my imagination. If I need to do something beyond the coded system, I do it. They are there as a base foundation (in my opinion) and not an end all be all.
Example from Armageddon MUD - Disgraced Bard wants to cut himself because his wife died. He opts to slit a wrist and I can easily wish up to staff and ask to be set with a declining HP. This provides a clock by which I will die at the end. That isn't technically code supported but it can be setup. Conversely I could just RP the entire thing out, quit, and send in a request to have my character stored or killed to represent the culmination of my roleplay.
I should also note (again) that Otherspace has space travel and crafting coded. That is it. It qualifies for our "automated systems" requirement to be listed. So when I am discussing coded support and automated systems I don't mean combat has to be automated per se. I personally like it being automated and we are doing it for Project Redshift: Read Senior Dev Jaunt Discuss Immersive Combat Design
I already typed all that up before your edit so I will leave it in....
Character story benefits from strong willed and creative players who are able to tell those stories without the benefit of an external influence. I agree. I also agree that the death of one characters in a 2 character relationship could be a huge character development for 1 of them but that's 50% less RP overall.
Sometimes players get scared though. They get overly attached. They become complacent. They need a helping hand. It is here that coded systems can really assist them by giving feedback and stimulus outside their own thoughts which they can seize onto and run with. Oh I made a mistake and a buck gored me... What can I do roleplay wise with this unfortunate turn of evenets? Oh I accidentally bought to many mugs of beer. Hey there's a dude over there, I'll give one to him and chat him up. Oh traveling from this city to the next city over is codedly very dangerous. Let me plan ahead and possibly hire other people to escort me and interact with them.
Could all of it be accomplished without code. You bet! Does having code sometimes help and prompt players into doing things they may not have thought of themselves. I think so.
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Wait, all this makes me a Senior Dev. Holy smokes!
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@Jeshin said:
Sometimes players get scared though. They get overly attached. They become complacent. They need a helping hand. It is here that coded systems can really assist them by giving feedback and stimulus outside their own thoughts which they can seize onto and run with. Oh I made a mistake and a buck gored me... What can I do roleplay wise with this unfortunate turn of evenets? Oh I accidentally bought to many mugs of beer. Hey there's a dude over there, I'll give one to him and chat him up. Oh traveling from this city to the next city over is codedly very dangerous. Let me plan ahead and possibly hire other people to escort me and interact with them.
That sounds good (if paternalistic), but from my experience on SoI, Shadow Siege, Harshlands, and Armageddon, here is some of what code typically does on RPI MUDs:
- Force players involved in a 45-minute long real-time conversation have their characters eat twice because the game is running at 6:1 speed and code is nagging them that they're hungry.
- Present characters with a table covered with 45 food objects because someone was doing "solo RP" by practicing crafting. (A practice defended by game staff because "people need to practice" when I complained about how unrealistic and spammy this was.)
- Employ the clumsiest, least natural, and most restrictive syntax possible for the most important element of "telling a story": having your character speak and describing your character's expression and movement.
- Encourage munchkins. Read the SoI reboot's forums if you don't believe me.
Another thing that RPI MUDs have also been doing well for over a decade is trumpeting themselves as the most advanced and immersive text-based RP games and the salvation of text gaming. They're not; they're just another way of playing Let's Pretend.
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I would say you're looking at more 60 - 90 minute and eating once during that time span. For Armageddon at least. Otherwise you are correct.
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The grind associated with the current RPI offerings is also that bad yes. This has to do with no real economy in their games or a broken one and what I believe is a simplistic approach to character code progression.
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say (reaches up and scratches the side of his cheek whilst listening to his companion. Afterwards he politely folds his hands in his lap before replying) No that is true, though SOI: Laketown has emote/pose which allow " " within it just like free posing on MUSHes. Armageddon has emotes and poses as well but you cannot speak within them because they haven't implemented " " code that identifies your spoken language.
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I am not familiar with what munchkins are. Do you mean that SOI supports pregnancy and everything? Do you mean they allow kid characters?
As to RPI marketing tactics they are just that. Advertisement and marketing. While I personally haven't done the whole we're the best way to experience roleplay banner ad or anything. I would also argue that all of our respective approaches to text-based gaming have billed themselves as the best approach at one time or another. So yeah they've said it and they probably believe it too!
For my part as an RPI developer, I will say a lot of your concerns will hopefully be less applicable to Project Redshift because we are developing on Evennia and do not have legacy DIKU issues because of it. Also we're billing our game as a "Professional RPI" because the staff is paid. In our marketing phase I will try and restrain myself from implying Redshift is the Jesus of text-based gaming, but people love what they love and they can get carried away.
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Quick Addition
When I encourage you guys to advertise and participate in development discussions on Optional Realities, it is because a lot of these topics get brought up. For example overnight while I slept someone brought up how in some games there's an unrealistic (and thus poor RP form) of grinding going on because people become fixated on their stats whether it is a # or a descriptor word. The presumption is that changing the way you display +sheet/score/skill list information to a player can help curb this issue in games that have grinding code progression. Obviously one of the biggest issues is that it has grinding code progression! Still might be an interesting look and benefit from a more MUSH centric view point that isn't steeped in traditional MUD approaches.
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On the topic of grinding, I think the biggest thing that'd help is finding a way to make progression more natural. Note, -not more realistic-. Just more, that it happens over time without you having to consciously as a player go 'i want my character to have X-Skill at a level comparable to the players who know how to game the system, so..how do -I- as the player manage that'.
One of my favorite things from my brief stint on the SoI reboot, was that I made a stealthy hunter type character, and...my core skills just went up, while I was out doing what my character was supposed to be doing. Sneak/hide/longbow/butchery/tracking (which I didn't even have at first) all progressed wonderfully. And it felt great, not having to worry about purposefully trying to improve myself. Sneaking around the woods and exploring while there were wolves and boars visible in three different directions, being an idiot and sneaking into the orc cave.
Crafting is something I imagine shouldn't be hard to make less 'omg I have to spam practice', it just needs appropriate scaling of how hard it is to pop a skill-up, and maybe scaled the chance much higher with more costly crafts. But combat-related skills are obviously something that would really benefit from somebody coming up with a less 'you need to game the system for skill-ups to be competitive' way to handle. On the stealthy-hunter character I mentioned above, I wanted to learn dual wield and improve at short blades, to help with patrols, which....resulted in me changing my solo hunts from bow-use to jumping out of the bushes at deer like a ninja, stabbing them, then hiding/trailing them after they fled, ninja'ing them again, /repeat until dead. And it just, honestly felt kind of stupid. But, the alternative was to go do "sparring rp" 3-4 times A RL DAY, and hope one of those RP sessions would result in a 1-point skill improve, which jesus, no.
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@Jeshin said:
In our marketing phase I will try and restrain myself from implying Redshift is the Jesus of text-based gaming, but people love what they love and they can get carried away.
The "Jesus of text-based gaming" is the thing that put me off contributing to that Storium project, interesting as parts of it were. We're a bunch of grown-ups playing pretend online. I don't think anyone needs to pretend they've invented the way to cure RP cancer to say they have a game that's maybe fun.
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Japheth is the Creator of FutureMUD a next generation engine for the development of MUDs (Not sure on flexibility on creating MUSHes)! It's all in the name, he's got a gift for it. Find out more about the engine and about his journey developing it right here on Optional Realities! If MUDs aren't your thing you can at least take solace that new engines are still being created for text-based gaming!
http://optionalrealities.com/designing-a-more-customisable-mud-engine/
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The marketing jargon. It burns.
I'm CTO of EldritchMux!
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Would you prefer Creator of FutureMUD? Coder of FutureMUD? Dude behind FutureMUD? -
@Jeshin said:
If MUDs aren't your thing you can at least take solace that new engines are still being created for text-based gaming!
You know... it has been bugging me that you, Jeshin, seem to have something against MUSHes. I can't really put my finger on it, but you seem to hold high your own genre/standard when you don't even seem to have the whole story on "text-based gaming".
PennMUSH and RhostMUSH have, and are, still under active development. They are very stable staples in the MUSH circle of the 'text-based gaming' Venn diagram. So yes, despite your misguided attempt at consolation of those that find that "MUDs aren't [their] thing", it is in fact very true.
Now do I have anything against new MUD engines? No, not at all. But it just seems to me that you are coming to this forum to advertise MUD via your website. And given that, as proven by your words in this very thread, don't seem to be all that willing to include the games WE play in your listings (but are more than willing to allow conversation on your forums), I find my interest in reading your posts waning quite quickly because of your slanted language.
Not trying to be a dick.
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I don't have anything against MUSHes. What I have is limited experience with them. I very much consider MUSHes as much a part of "text-based gaming" as I would consider Zork a part of text-based gaming or any game which is fundamentally text-based. I have my preference and I certainly haven't tried to hide it but I've also tried to expand my understanding of other branches of the genre too.
SmaugFUSS is under active development just like PennMUSH but they are legacy engines. Evennia is an example of a new engine that can be used for MUDs or MUSHes and I find it encouraging that someone is developing for a more general approach to the medium. I comment on FutureMUD being good even if MUDs aren't your thing because it shows there is still passion in creating new codebases for the community.
As you know from ( http://optionalrealities.com/forums/index.php?topic=22.0 ) I have PennMUSH listed right up there with the others as that is an engine I am familiar with and knew was still being supported. As for games that you play we do have Otherspace (which I thought was a much bigger splash in the MUSH community than it was) and I hope to include Kushiel's Debut soon! And I am actually looking through the MUSHes I was listed on another thread to see if any of them would qualify as is because "code supported" can mean a lot of things.
EDIT - If there are any new MUSH centric codebases being created that are open source, please provide the links here and I will make sure they are listed like everyone else!
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Presto!
We have one MUSH in the pipeline to be listed on Optional Realities! Big thank you to the people who provided me with lists of them in the other thread.
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@Jeshin said:
Would you prefer Creator of FutureMUD? Coder of FutureMUD? Dude behind FutureMUD?Yes.
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Updated.
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@Jeshin said:
It is just that they do not fall under the purview of games which we would list and give a sub-forum.
Why are you here? I mean, everything I've read from you has the same air as this singular sentence.
Hint: Do not go into a vegetarian cafe and advertise your butcher shop. At length. And then tell the vegetarians that they're doing it wrong according to your standards.
If you are, by your rules, actively excluding the community that makes up the bulk of the people around these parts, you're in the wrong place. You can argue an intent at inclusion all you want (oh, it's not stopping you from using our forums or contributing!) but why the fuck would we want to do that? We have this place. We have a community. We've been going strong for plenty of time, even if it hasn't been on this site.
You keep saying 'I'm not saying games without these things are bad, but...' It's the 'but' there that's killing you with a lot of this audience. Well, that and the condescension that drips from every other word. Yay, you encourage all of the text based games out there even if they don't fit. DO I GET A GOLD STAR?!?!?!
Our games don't fit your standards, for the most part. I'm planning on one of the most heavily automated soft-coded systems for one of my games, and Smoke still wouldn't qualify. Trying to talk any of us into changing our games to suit your site is silly at best and offensive at worst.
ETA: If this were the hog pit I would have added quite a bit to this. There are a couple of choice words I'd be throwing around. I'll just let everyone use their imaginations. We do that, around here.
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@Sunny
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Why am I here?**Because it said musoapbox and my initial impression was that it was appropriate to discuss all MUs of which MUDing is one of them. I stay because generally I find the discussion positive even if I do get the vibe I am unwanted no one has been outright rude or anything.
Are you Doing it Wrong?
Newp and I haven't asked anyone to change their game. But the truth of the matter is some MUSHes (not the majority) do fall within the purview to be listed. I found one because of this website, so as I said big thank you.
The but in my statements
The OR staff agreed on the criteria for listing games on the website and they extend solely to the listing. This criteria doesn't extend to the community discussion. I have enjoy the discussions here and it's certainly opened me up to some interesting games which I'm pursuing. There is a reason I keep inviting people to the community to share in discussions. Optional Realities isn't a listing site. It's meant to be a community site and varying viewpoints help in discussion. Thus the but. I like MUSHes as a whole but I won't list games that don't meet the criteria because if I make an exception for MUSHes I have to make an exception for MUDs and then we become a TMC/TMS website.
As to community cross over. Yup I said feel free to plug your games on OR (because it'd be a new source of potential players) but in the same vein I've plugged musoapbox over there a couple of times. I'm not aiming to steal away users but I am interested in some MUD/MUSH cross thought exchange thus my encouragement
The Skinny
I like the community, some of the threads are pretty interesting, and I certainly am interested in exploring more MUSHes. If this particular thread is inappropriate or becoming offensive than I can cut it and just participate in other facets of the community. Let me know, I'm a big boy, you can use the 4 letter words on me.
EDIT - Actually small Irony. It was Sunny's Kushiel Debut thread which led me to this forum as I was doing research on their keyword hits within google because they recently had an explosion in players.
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@Sunny said:
ETA: If this were the hog pit I would have added quite a bit to this. There are a couple of choice words I'd be throwing around. I'll just let everyone use their imaginations. We do that, around here.
To make @Jeshin feel more at home, I could write up some code that generates expressions using those choice words. After all, apparently exercising imagination doesn't fall under the purview of things he likes to do…
@Jeshin: Which language would you prefer the choice words generator to be written in? Pick one of Prolog, Rexx, Lua, Mercury, Forth or Erlang.
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There's a huge gap between participating in the community and looking down your nose at it. If you're not attempting to do the latter, you should probably check your tone. As for your bit of irony...well. Someone else can point out the really, really, really funny part there.
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I'm unsure how I've looked down my nose at the community. I've shared my opinions and asked questions. People shared their opinions and asked questions. If there is any presumed tone than I apologize but lets look at some actions I've taken?
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I have begun the process of including another MUSH to Optional Realities because it looks interesting and fits the listing requirements.
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I have plugged musoapbox on Optional Realities. Here and Here because I think it'd benefit people to come read this community board.
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I've started a thread to get some MUSH suggestions for me to try out
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I've added some games from the suggestions thread to the Other Game thread on OR right here
I have a differing opinion from some (or most) of you. I've never said you're wrong or your games are bad. I've not attempted to insult any of you. I can only assume that the double special irony is going to be that @Sunny is a staffer (or owner) of Kushiel's Debut?
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