The Wheel of Time

Rucket · Dec 12, 2021, 2:24 AM

In an AMA, Brandon Sanderson was asked about the 'Perrin's wife' thing. He said he objected to it, felt it was completely unnecessary, and suggested that Master Luhhan could fulfil the role of shocking Perrin in the same way, without being problematic. And he was ignored.

To be fair, Sanderson has also said that he's made suggestions or given feedback that were listened to. I have heard Rafe talk about how much he loves the books, and I don't doubt him on this. He's an interesting guy because he's actually been in another fandom before, as a fan and participant with Survivor (he is in Season 10 I believe).

Anyway, I think Sanderson has made a good point elsewhere, that television and movies are a different animal than novels. I agree with this, and having seen adaptation after adaptation shit on source material I've enjoyed in the past...

I can say that this is an adaptation I really enjoy and appreciate. There's a lot of the core material there, and we're getting some new material. I don't think the core stories will be changing, but I think we'll see things from a different perspective than that of the books both because you can only do so much with 8 hours a season and because budgets are a thing lol.

Plus I've heard some positive things from non-readers, so if they are bringing in new fans who are encouraged to read the books later on by fans who aren't going to shit on anything and everything, I'm all for that.

Runescryer · Dec 12, 2021, 12:29 AM

@derp Luhhan wasn't just Perrin's mentor;he was also his adoptive father. The Luhhans took Perrin in when his parents dies. So you're saying that killing his adoptive father isn't traumatic enough?

Second...this is the literal definition of fridging. The term came from the first few issues of Kyle Rayner as Green Lantern , where his girlfriend was killed nd stuffed in their refrigerator to provide Kyle with motivation to go after the bad guy. Laila is not a character from the books. She was created expressly to be killed off in a gruesome way to give Perrin a kick in the ass to answer the call to adventure, How is this not fridging?

And at least Perrin getting tortured by Whitecloaks is a part of the books; they just decided to 'expand' on it.

And that's really what this series is about. In a single word: 'extra'. It goes out of it's way to go beyond what it needs to show and do to service the story. They took the 'drama' knob, cranked it up to 11 (Jordan already had it at a 10.5), then ripped the knob off. Because they have to keep the 'blood and t!its' fans of GoT that crossed over, happy and interested. Mostly by providing the gritty, bloody drama. Although we are apparently getting to the t!ts.

Three-Eyed Crow · Dec 12, 2021, 1:36 AM

My issue with the Perrin thing is what a non-character his wife was. Fridging issues aside...this was a person with no lines and the show did not successfully make me feel emotionally invested in that relationship. I don't actually think Master Luhhan would've been better if the first episode still wasn't going to give that relationship any screentime. I also don't think it would've taken much. Mat's family situation felt a lot more fleshed-out than Perrin's marriage because of like 1 or 2 minutes of effort to show his parents sucking.

I think a 90-minute pilot with some more time in Emond's Field would've made me feel better about all the Two Rivers stuff, but apparently that's not what Amazon wanted and the show has subsequently been a lot better in terms of characterization.

Arkandel · Dec 12, 2021, 2:24 AM

@rucket said in The Wheel of Time:

Anyway, I think Sanderson has made a good point elsewhere, that television and movies are a different animal than novels. I agree with this, and having seen adaptation after adaptation shit on source material I've enjoyed in the past...

Of course. Absolutely. There is no way the exposition alone from a series like the Wheel of Time could possibly fit within a TV series, even one with many more than just 8 episodes per season. We can't possible sit through the equivalent of hundreds of pages explaining how the One Power works, for example. That'd be downright impossible.

Nor would it be reasonable for any of us to not lose some favorite secondary book characters or subplots altogether. Even big plots. Merging either (or just plain skipping them) are just about par for the course. Sometimes it's just to save on costs; sets are expensive so if they aren't going to be reused, it makes every sense to cut down.

Even some indulgences are fine. I'm a purist Tolkien fan but I didn't mind (too much ) that Glorfindel was removed and Arwen put in his place, or even when they had that subplot about her fate being 'tied to Middle-Earth'. It's a'ight. Elves at Helms Deep? Okay, I can roll with it. Legolas' acrobatic fights? Okay, that's fine.

But - to use the same examples as above - it's one thing to have Arwen's role upgraded and another to replace Pippin and have her be in the Fellowship. It's okay to merge some Aes Sedai with similar political views, or to make the One Power way simpler without explaining almost any of it directly. They'll get to the same point; Nynaeve is like, very strong and she really is something special as a Healer. We don't need to be told what a Spirit weave is.

If they can pull the Lord of the Rings' equivalent of adopting the material with the Wheel of Time series I'll be more than happy.

They can depart from the original material; they just shouldn't go their separate ways, and I'll have a really good time with it.

Rucket · Dec 12, 2021, 4:35 AM

@three-eyed-crow said in The Wheel of Time:

My issue with the Perrin thing is what a non-character his wife was. Fridging issues aside...this was a person with no lines and the show did not successfully make me feel emotionally invested in that relationship. I don't actually think Master Luhhan would've been better if the first episode still wasn't going to give that relationship any screentime. I also don't think it would've taken much. Mat's family situation felt a lot more fleshed-out than Perrin's marriage because of like 1 or 2 minutes of effort to show his parents sucking.

I think a 90-minute pilot with some more time in Emond's Field would've made me feel better about all the Two Rivers stuff, but apparently that's not what Amazon wanted and the show has subsequently been a lot better in terms of characterization.

Yeah the show runner wanted a 2 hour long premier and Amazon was like 'lol no'. So I'm not as critical as I might have been because I think they are trying to do their best to bring all of this to life in a way that can appeal to book fans and bring new people in.

Runescryer · Dec 12, 2021, 4:48 AM

@arkandel See, I don't disagree with your LoTR assessment. Cutting out the minor figures, fine. I did not miss Tom Bombadill cartwheeling on the screen. But, the other half is...where does it stop being an adaptation of someone's work and become the work of the adapter? For example...The Hobbit. Turning the book into a full trilogy caused so much filler material to be created and added, I felt it was more Peter Jackson's fan-fic than Tolkien's story. There's a point where you risk losing the core fans that are hyping up the story for the newcomers. This show just reached that point right off the bat, IMO, instead of taking 1 and a half to two films.

Three-Eyed Crow · Dec 12, 2021, 4:52 AM

@rucket
Same, though it does make me more side-eye about the heavy hand of Amazon on some other aspects of the show (the 'Who is the dragon reborn mystery box I don't think is an actual mystery' in particular). The showrunner seems thoughtful and smart about the adaptation choices he's making thus far, though, and I'm eager to see where it goes in its second season.

Rucket · Dec 12, 2021, 3:39 PM

@three-eyed-crow said in The Wheel of Time:

@rucket
Same, though it does make me more side-eye about the heavy hand of Amazon on some other aspects of the show (the 'Who is the dragon reborn mystery box I don't think is an actual mystery' in particular). The showrunner seems thoughtful and smart about the adaptation choices he's making thus far, though, and I'm eager to see where it goes in its second season.

I suspect that all involved wanted some sort of "mystery" to be a hook for the first season. I'm not sure how show viewers will react when all is involved but my SUSPICIONS are that they are going to make the reveal interesting enough/epic enough to satisfy those folks.

All I want Amazon to do now is to open wallet, give the show more $ and 2 more episodes a season. With maybe a full-length movie for...

***Book Spoiler (but mild)***

click to show

Arkandel · Dec 12, 2021, 7:48 PM

@runescryer said in The Wheel of Time:

@arkandel See, I don't disagree with your LoTR assessment. Cutting out the minor figures, fine. I did not miss Tom Bombadill cartwheeling on the screen. But, the other half is...where does it stop being an adaptation of someone's work and become the work of the adapter? For example...The Hobbit. Turning the book into a full trilogy caused so much filler material to be created and added, I felt it was more Peter Jackson's fan-fic than Tolkien's story. There's a point where you risk losing the core fans that are hyping up the story for the newcomers. This show just reached that point right off the bat, IMO, instead of taking 1 and a half to two films.

I hope you pardon the length of this rant, it's a favorite topic of mine.

There's a saying in sports, that winning conceals many problems. A team might have personal clashes, coaching problems, bad contracts... but as long as it wins those tend to be swept under the rug.

The Hobbit trilogy made several missteps. I definitely agree it stretched a long book into three movies so they had to add a lot of fillers in there to make it watchable, they introduced a love triangle, crammed a Council of the Wise versus the Nazgul scene and just a bunch of blue screened sequences that were probably closer to a video game than the Oscar-winning masterpieces the Lord of the Rings series amassed.

But here's the thing; the biggest sin The Hobbit committed was simply that it... wasn't good. Had it been good we might not have been talking about any of this. It didn't work - as simple as that.

And it wasn't because the fillers didn't belong canonically, either. For example Galadriel, Saruman, Gandalf and Elrond pushing The Necromancer out of Dol Guldur is documented - it happened in the book... even though that whole scene was originally just a line of dialogue. The Legolas love triangle was weird but I mean... there was no reason he wasn't around at the time, and if he was included then he needed something to do.

I think we're judging that by its results - it wasn't a great movie trilogy, and so the parts also failed.

It also has to do with expectations. When I sit to watch the Wheel of Time TV show I 'expect' it to more or less follow the books. Some adjustments are okay; major storylines being gutted would not be (and just to be clear, so far I don't have any such complaints - I seriously doubt they are changing who the Dragon Reborn is from the books).

As a different example of expectations though maybe look at Middle-earth: Shadow of Mordor. That video game uh, didn't... quite stick to the books. In fact it looked at the books, got drunk and possibly high then just kinda went "I wanna have swordfights with Orc captains, the fucking Nine , Balrogs and goddamn Shelob. And forge a Ring of Power. And also pull a Geist: the Sin-Eaters all over this". Then it did exactly that. I loved it!

Is that fair to demand from the producers? Because it's a high bar. "Sure, make a series. Don't make it too faithful or it will be boring to watch. But don't change it so much that it's too different. Make the material your own but don't write fan-fiction either. I want it to look like it's in my head. We all want it to look like it's in our collective heads. And it needs to work both for book readers and show-watchers."

No. But that's why they get paid the big bucks.

dvoraen · Dec 13, 2021, 3:59 AM

Now that I'm caught up to E6...

***=Spoilers through E6 and Book Spoilers***

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It's been interesting to watch how they deviate from the source material, but the scene with the Oath Rod irked me. Swearing a capital-O Oath as part of the terms of her exile was at best a taboo in the Tower, as the later books attested. Egwene was appalled by the idea when she discovered that had happened to Meidani and the other sisters that returned to Tar Valon under Elaida. Plus, it was practically unnecessary. Moiraine giving a vocal oath to obey the terms of her exile would have been upheld by the First Oath, as was heavily implied throughout the series, and would have been a worldbuilding moment where they could further extrapolate on how Aes Sedai are bound by the Three Oaths. It's not like sisters being exiled from Tar Valon was a new type of penance, per New Spring.

I wish they had gone with Myrelle over Alanna for the Green well acquainted with Moiraine. Myrelle was heavily implied to 'be with' her Warders, to say nothing about the gossip regarding her marrying them, so the threesome feels more believable if it had been her. Plus, the implications about Ebou Dari culture (from where Myrelle hailed) along with some of the things Myrelle says about men makes her a better fit.

I like how they give a little more screen time to Warder Things, though I was a bit ambivalent on how they handled Steppin (sp?) reacting to the bond backlash. That he was suicidal felt canonical, considering how multiple sisters comment or think on Warders "seeking death" if they survive their Aes Sedai. I do feel like they downplayed the backlash a bit though, making it seem less than it is in the books, which is the source of my ambivalence.

That little nod to the Forsaken had me trying to match names with figurines. I'm really curious how the showrunners will handle them.

All in all, I'm entertained, but having knowledge of the books is kind of trying at times, because I keep internally scoffing at some of the portrayals, such as the certainty I have that Lan and Moiraine would never have shared a bath.

Rucket · Dec 13, 2021, 5:02 AM

@dvoraen

***Your Text***
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All in all, I'm entertained, but having knowledge of the books is kind of trying at times, because I keep internally scoffing at some of the portrayals, such as the certainty I have that Lan and Moiraine would never have shared a bath.

***My response***

click to show

crayon · Dec 13, 2021, 8:40 AM

I'm wary of the Wheel of Time series, to be honest.

I was able to enjoy the first three episodes. I don't think the more glaring changes that early in the adaptation were all that bad, though the fridging was concerning.

As the show has progressed, though, the enjoyment has died down a little and my wariness has ramped up. We seem to be moving away from logical changes that make sense for adapting the text to screen to changes for the sake of (the drama of) them. Also seeing some of the subverting expectations for the sake of it thing that soured Game of Thrones for me.

The plot's starting to feel rushed and I worry that maybe for a non-reader it's becoming a bit of a blur. I'm not really okay with a major part of the story they skipped recently, and while I think one could make an argument in support of the fusion of certain characters, I'm not personally a fan of it. It's kind of like fusing Bellatrix Lestrange and Dolores Umbridge into the same person; it doesn't really work because Umbridge is meant to represent an entirely different type of evil.

There's also a major character that I think might be getting cut from the rest of this season and recast in the next and that's always jarring. I don't know. I'll ride it out but I'm afraid there's probably disappointment ahead. Maybe I'm just jaded. Maybe it's easing into becoming WoT fanfic rather than WoT adaptation.

***=Clarification***

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Arkandel · Dec 13, 2021, 5:23 PM

By the way:

crayon · Dec 13, 2021, 6:33 PM

***=Spoilers***

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Arkandel · Dec 13, 2021, 6:38 PM

@crayon Acshually...

***=Spoiler warning!***

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crayon · Dec 13, 2021, 8:41 PM

@arkandel

WildBaboons · Dec 13, 2021, 8:46 PM

Hey now, we're all Friends here.

Arkandel · Dec 13, 2021, 9:10 PM

@wildbaboons ~~Except for~~ especially the darkfriends.

Seraphim73 · Dec 13, 2021, 9:34 PM

@derp said in The Wheel of Time:

People keep saying this is fridging. It’s not.

I disagree intensely with this statement. The death of Perrin's wife is absolutely fridging. TVTropes defines "Stuffed in the Fridge" as "A loved one is hurt, killed, maimed, assaulted, or otherwise traumatized in order to motivate another character or move their plot forward." That is 100% what happened to Perrin's wife. She was killed in order to traumatize Perrin and to make his choice between Hammer and Axe all the harder. That's like... the definition of fridging.

The fact that the show passes the Bechdel test and is (generally) fantastic about representation doesn't change the fact that this is fridging, and utterly unnecessary. Killing off Master Luhhan would have been fridging too, but this was creating a character specifically to fridge them. That's worse.

Oh, yeah, @Runescryer said the same thing. Well, I already had this typed up, I'm going to keep it. Also, to Runescryer's point, there were bare breasts in the latest episode in the sauna.

@crayon It's only one anecdote, but my wife, who has only read about 40 pages of Book One (although we both played on Cuendillar a ways back), has not gotten lost despite the blur. I've answered a few questions for her, but haven't had to do much.

Arkandel · Dec 13, 2021, 9:57 PM

@seraphim73 said in The Wheel of Time:

@derp said in The Wheel of Time:

People keep saying this is fridging. It’s not.

I disagree intensely with this statement. The death of Perrin's wife is absolutely fridging. TVTropes defines "Stuffed in the Fridge" as "A loved one is hurt, killed, maimed, assaulted, or otherwise traumatized in order to motivate another character or move their plot forward." That is 100% what happened to Perrin's wife. She was killed in order to traumatize Perrin and to make his choice between Hammer and Axe all the harder. That's like... the definition of fridging.

There's some speculation online (which I won't put behind spoiler tags since, after all, it's just a theory) that Perrin's wife was a darkfriend. This would possibly give some depth to what happened.

Would it change your mind if the plot device had more depth behind it than just her death?