Dust to Dust (Formerly the nWoD grenade thread)

[Coin]

@ThatGuyThere said:

@Coin
I admit true complete objectivity is not likely possible but I do feel it should be the goal.

Assuming a functionality based on a goal rather than the present capabilities of the people who are actually doing it is a great way to run smack into a brick wall. If you expect objecitivity because it's your "goal" (which I, by the way, disagree with) then you're going to find "ethical issues" where there aren't actually any. Knowing that these things cannot be objective but wanting a functional level of objectivity means allowing for subjectivity to be mediated by other viewpoints. If you can avoid a circle jerk, you'll be fine.

@Sunny said:

@Coin said:

@Sunny said:

since historically alternatives to XP haven't yielded very good results

I can't say I agree with this; games without stats still get PRPs pretty frequently.

There is a key difference in that there not being stats or XP at all creates a different atmosphere regarding plots and running plots than when there is. We can like it or not, but the attitude the players take is different. When no one is getting XP because it's not a thing, then it doesn't become a 'these people get it and these people don't' issue. So it's not really a good comparison.

(Boy, I am with the nitpicking of comparison lately. I apologize only a little.)

Geez, man. Nitpick, nitpick, nitpick. I forgive you, but only because you're right. It is an entirely different ball of wax. But so is TR, and we're making lots of those comparisons.

Well, I haven't. Because I'm better than you. NEENER.

No, I get it. I just honestly have tried to avoid comparisons with other games and instead focused on game design styles precisely so I can avoid this sort of thing. I think I've compared more to my own game, because it works on the principle I'm in favor of. The Reach was a clusterfuck for many reasons, and most of them were way more important than "staff got XP for plots".

[Ganymede]

@Miss-Demeanor said:

Because your player run plots aren't advancing sphere plots or (hopefully) metaplots. STAFF should be running those things, not players. Staff should have that inside information, not players. That should be a Staff ST's entire job, handling the plots that cannot or should not be handled by players.

This is not categorically true or untrue. Players generally expect that staff will handle sphere-wide plots, but this does not have to be the case. And staff does not need to reveal inside information in order to operate a sphere-wide plot. So, I disagree that sphere-wide plots must be run by staff only.

I have for a long time suggested the implementation and use of staff-sanctioned modules. These are plots that are drafted up by staff, with bits of information in them that may be discovered by the players through the plot. Players can easily run modules, and be unaware of over-arching themes or a meta-plot that is shown when you put the modules together.

You use the word "should" a lot, and I have to ask "why." It's not because I'm trying to be obtuse or childish, but because I think we ought to challenge the "should" and wonder: "what if?"

[ThatGuyThere]

@Coin
Ahh see here is where the it is just a game comes in for me. I will gladly sacrifice functionality for chasing the ideal. After all worst case scenario game ends and hopefully some people had fun along the way validating it's existence.
I would rather see a game end striving for a goal then last last indefinitely as a tribute to functionality.

[Coin]

@ThatGuyThere said:

@Coin
Ahh see here is where the it is just a game comes in for me. I will gladly sacrifice functionality for chasing the ideal. After all worst case scenario game ends and hopefully some people had fun along the way validating it's existence.
I would rather see a game end striving for a goal then last last indefinitely as a tribute to functionality.

Except it's not just a game. Not really. We like to say it is, but it's our hobby. One we put a lot of time and effort into. Further, it being less important than real life, etc., or "just a game", to use your words, means that I am more inclined to drop idealism and head straight for functionality. That's why I'm in favor of running games as dictatorships rather than democracies, for example.

[Sunny]

@Coin Yeah, whatever. Talk to the hand. I wish I didn't adore you so much. I can't think of something mean to say that I would actually say.

My point was more that the natural storytellers are going to do their thing regardless of whether or not they're getting rewarded for it. That's what we do. Some of us go do it by building games, and some of us do it by running an OTT for a solo friend.

---

Here's a way to put it, I think, that might help clarify my position. I sort of touched on it before, but I'll put it out there on its own.

If it requires you to see behind the ST screen, no reward. If it does not, reward. If it does not require seeing behind the screen, run it from a non-behind-the-screen bit.

[Coin]

@Sunny said:

@Coin Yeah, whatever. Talk to the hand. I wish I didn't adore you so much. I can't think of something mean to say that I would actually say.

You can call me a jerk. @Eerie does it all the time.

My point was more that the natural storytellers are going to do their thing regardless of whether or not they're getting rewarded for it. That's what we do. Some of us go do it by building games, and some of us do it by running an OTT for a solo friend.

---

Here's a way to put it, I think, that might help clarify my position. I sort of touched on it before, but I'll put it out there on its own.

If it requires you to see behind the ST screen, no reward. If it does not, reward. If it does not require seeing behind the screen, run it from a non-behind-the-screen bit.

I understand, I do. I just don't agree that it requiring looking behind the screen should have that sort of impact, is all. This is just a fundamental difference in the way we design games, and I'm okay with that.

[Miss Demeanor]

@Coin @Arkandel @Ganymede

I'll have to formulate up more comprehensive answers later, but to at least toss up something now so you don't feel like I'm ignoring the points you've all brought up...

Gany: When I say 'sphere-wide plot' I mean 'metaplot for a sphere', as in, the major story arc for a sphere. And I say 'should' because I know that such things HAVE been handed to players before. Never saw it end well, but its happened.

Coin: It may be a fact to you, but its not to me. I don't know that you would act the same on both bits. In addition, that separation exists in part because of a point you yourself brought up earlier. You don't want to be bugged about 'staff stuff' on your characters. The same works in reverse. Don't make 'staff decisions' on your character bit.

Ark: Dude, you need to work on your quoting. XD I don't feel comfortable letting you, as a non-staffer, make the sort of long-lasting and far-reaching changes to an entire sphere that a metaplot can and often does, just because you think it would be fun to run. Its taking none of the rest of the sphere's thoughts or opinions into account and could end up lessening the enjoyment of people in the sphere.

[Thenomain]

@Miss-Demeanor,

I think it's also important to come up with a way to run a game and stick with it. The particulars can change, but the generalities should be consistent. It's something I'm echoing from @Ganymede, but to a more narrow conclusion:

You can't let a single player or a small group of players change that. Discussion and honing what we like, what we don't like, and what we think is right is good. Catering to demands of one person's opinion is not.

[Coin]

@Miss-Demeanor said:

Coin: It may be a fact to you, but its not to me. I don't know that you would act the same on both bits. In addition, that separation exists in part because of a point you yourself brought up earlier. You don't want to be bugged about 'staff stuff' on your characters. The same works in reverse. Don't make 'staff decisions' on your character bit.

I went into more detail on all of that later on, so I'm not sure what else I can say. In point of fact, you do know that I would act the same way, because it's still me. This idea that we can separate ourselves and what we choose and the decisions we make depending on what bit we're speaking on is silly. It might color it, we might be more or less polite, speak with more or less authority, but the person behind the screen is still the same one.

Your comparison doesn't work, at least in my case, actually, because of a bunch of reasons I already typed up!

[Ganymede]

@Miss-Demeanor said:

Gany: When I say 'sphere-wide plot' I mean 'metaplot for a sphere', as in, the major story arc for a sphere. And I say 'should' because I know that such things HAVE been handed to players before. Never saw it end well, but its happened.

I think I understood what you said. Just because you did not see it end well does not mean it is a bad idea.

What I envision is dividing up a sphere-wide plot into tiny pieces, which a player can easily run on their own. They can be events; they can be actual stories; they can be whatever. Staff can manage that, and pitch in where necessary.

It just requires some coordination and leadership. So maybe it is something we ought not consider.

[Miss Demeanor]

@Thenomain Don't get me wrong, I'm for discussion and getting a sampling of what -everyone- wants/doesn't want/thinks is right or wrong... but in the end, its not going to change my personal opinion. I play on games that have policies/staffers that I don't always agree with. I recognize that my opinion may not be in the majority or popular. That doesn't stop me from espousing my opinion on forums such as this where I know it will have no affect on a game. There's a reason I called my last post a 'short response'. Its by far not the whole of my thoughts and/or opinions.

@Coin You do, actually, have the ability to act differently on different bits. People have been doing it for YEARS. That its you doesn't change that. Its where that whole 'I don't know you' part comes in. Because I don't know you, I can't actually say for fact that you would treat a single situation the same as both a staffer and a player. You say you would, but I have no evidence or history with you to show whether or not I can trust what you're saying. I don't understand why this is so hard for you to grasp.

[Thenomain]

@Miss-Demeanor

I'm responding to the bulk of your posts, not just the "short" one.

[Miss Demeanor]

@Thenomain Okay. Still doesn't change my last post.

[Sunny]

Imagine waking up somewhere and not knowing where you are.

Who you are.

What you are.

You panic.

READ ME!

That's on a huge banner taped to the mirror with an arrow pointing down, impossible to miss. There's an envelope.

You open it.

Dear self,

You have no idea who you are. You will never regain your memory. You chose to do this; you chose this life. The reason you chose this place was that it's a hotel you could pay for in cash, a million miles away from anyone and anything that's ever seen you. This choice was not made lightly. Make a life for yourself. Live. Love.

Never, ever go to Bay City.

Ignore every sign that it leaves you. You'll see it everywhere, and it will seem like a good idea again, and again, and again. Don't do it. It's caught you twice already.

Don't make it three. I'll kill myself if I make it three.

Good luck,
-Whatever name you choose

[Thenomain]

@Miss-Demeanor

Nor mine.

Go us.

[Cobalt]

@Sunny

RE: Your last post. That's pretty cool. I like it!

[Miss Demeanor]

@Thenomain said:

@Miss-Demeanor

Nor mine.

Go us.

Hey. Hey, I think you got something in your eye there. You might want to see a doctor if that doesn't clear up.

@Sunny If that's meant as a character intro... two thumbs up!!! Awesome, would read again.

[Sunny]

It is a little teaser thing. I'm glad you guys like it!

[Tempest]

@Sunny said:

It is a little teaser thing. I'm glad you guys like it!

No, that's my next character's background.

[Tempest]

So, the opening post says 'multi-sphere support'. Does that mean all splats? I mean, Reno and Eldritch technically have 'multi-sphere support' even though they're only 2 & 3 splats, respectively.

Apparently you're doing GMC? Mage & Changeling are supposedly coming out sometime soon-ish. Hurt locker, too. Are you going to wait for those? Are you going to psuedo-update splats that aren't GMC-ified, or just try to shove them in in their original form?