Hidden information and enjoyment

Misadventure

This thought is prompted by seeing games (live plays as well as text descriptions) where revealing the internal details of characters, and even whole plots is common.

My feeling is that MU* RP is more about finding out in the moment, seeing something unexpected, a surprise, a creation in the next bit of text. I also recall folks who dislike MU* RP having such info in it.

So perhaps consider for 2-3 familiar players, MU* in general, and some for of table-top where the players are decently familiar with one another.

How important is it to you to be able to, or not have to, explain your character's thinking, emotions etc to a table of RPers?

How do you feel about others doing to when you are at the table?

How about the GM describing the NPCs actions?

On a similar vein, how interesting/important is it to you to be able to keep secrets from the other players - meaning whatever it is, it is never discussed in front of them until it's revealed in game fiction?

Same again for other players at the table?

Same again for the GM and their NPCs?

Someone I spoke to about this also brought up character betrayal. Everything from minor theft, to relatively small working at counter purposes, to full on setting characters up to take a hit.

I myself have never seen that on a MU* where it wasn't really a player using IC lies to cover for OOC lies.

Ghost

@Misadventure said in Hidden information and enjoyment:

How important is it to you to be able to, or not have to, explain your character's thinking, emotions etc to a table of RPers?

I always preferred not to have to explain OOCly my thoughts, but absolutely need control of my PCs mindset. When I have creative dictation I like to be free to direct the character as to what makes sense to me. One of the best parts of RP with others is having elements outside of your direction, thus keeping things fresh.

How do you feel about others doing to when you are at the table?

I'm fine with it.

How about the GM describing the NPCs actions?

I think this is necessary, so absolutely it's important. The GM controls literally everything that isn't a PC, so the more the GM fleshes content out, the better it is for everyone.

On a similar vein, how interesting/important is it to you to be able to keep secrets from the other players - meaning whatever it is, it is never discussed in front of them until it's revealed in game fiction?

It depends on the secret, but this is where things always get complicated with MU. This can cause OOC issues, and sometimes the amount of control some other players want to have over what everyone else does (or metagaming) makes having and keeping PC secrets a definite must.

One time I kept a secret that a character I made at launch (BSG game), I was planning on having them die during the initial Cylon invasion. One player kept grilling me in pages about what I planned, etc. I played it vague. I killed the character ICly. They got mad to the point of complaining to staff OOCly.

It's dangerous territory

Same again for other players at the table?

Same for me, same for them

Same again for the GM and their NPCs?

GM secrets are mandatory, as are the NPC secrets. Players are not entitled to know those secrets, nor are they entitled to determine what those secrets are. It's a simple facet of Gm-driven RP.

Someone I spoke to about this also brought up character betrayal. Everything from minor theft, to relatively small working at counter purposes, to full on setting characters up to take a hit.
I myself have never seen that on a MU* where it wasn't really a player using IC lies to cover for OOC lies.

I've been on both sides of the coin, and it can get dicey. "Betrayal" has a lot of options:

Is it an IC betrayal?
Is it an OOC betrayal?
Is it a purely IC betrayal that is only taken as an IC betrayal?
Is it a purely IC betrayal that is taken as an OOC betrayal?

Best laid plans of mice and men in mind, I've tried to introduce IC betrayal elements and it turned into an OOC shitstorm due to players "fighting over creative control". It's pretty normal for two people sharing story elements to have disagreements over who holds the steering wheel. But...if you oocly prepare everyone for some kind of betrayal, it opens the situation to metagaming or the entire reveal being rendered boring due to it not being a shock at all.

I think you -really- need players who are open to unexpected plot twists, and players who don't demand control of elements that aren't theirs to control. I think everyone involved needs to be truly honest about what they do and do not want, and that in a lot of cases that can take a lot of the spice out of collaborative RP.

YMMY, but be careful.

faraday

There are different ways to play RPGs. None are inherently right or wrong, or better or worse, but it is vital that players and game-runners be on the same page.

Both Little House on the Prairie and Deadwood are westerns, but they are vastly different experiences. If you try to have a game where half the players want Little House and half want Deadwood, you're gonna have issues.

I prefer games that are cooperative storytelling experiences. In order to cooperate, some measure of OOC communication and transparency is essential. I've had good success running these types of games, but they're not for everyone.

Misadventure

@faraday Do you have personal preferences?

I hope everyone thinks that I and hopefully most players are aware there are different styles, different tables, etc.

There feels like it would be different to have a group member be revealed as the undead in most settings of D&D vs most settings of whatever World of Darkness is called these days.

In part I am talking about what an author might write, what is not strictly available to a PC - like having someone be angry and lash out, because they are confused, if they don't show that confusion.

Then there are things like I was a surgically altered <insert very biologically different and hostile opposed culture group> the whole time.

Ghost

@faraday said in Hidden information and enjoyment:

Both Little House on the Prairie and Deadwood are westerns, but they are vastly different experiences

Off-topic, but you should know this sentence set off a 2-megaton nuclear creativity-splosion in my head. In my head, AL Swearingen just yelled at little Laura Ingalls to get the fuck out of his saloon, and creepy-as-ever Brad Dourif as Doc is getting creepy at Michael Landon.

But excellent points dear to my heart. Everyone had to be telling the same thematic stories in the same genre/theme/setting or else it's a mess.

Macha

While I love characters having secrets that can be revealed in RP if the opportunity arises.. I have had it go very, very wrong. I will not rehash how.

faraday

@Misadventure said in Hidden information and enjoyment:

Do you have personal preferences?

Well, like I mentioned - I prefer collaboration and transparency.

Many of the negative experiences I've had in RP were when players weren't on the same page OOCly. It's a pattern that has repeated itself every time I've either run or witnessed a "big twist" or mystery type plot on MUs. But that's just me.

In TTRPG there's a higher degree of trust among friends, so I really don't think those experiences necessarily translate to a MU environment.

Ghost

@faraday said in Hidden information and enjoyment:

Well, like I mentioned - I prefer collaboration and transparency

I'm so torn.

It's really, really hard to do anything secret when it comes to "cooperative gaming/storytelling" without effectively neutering the sense of surprise. This got me in to regular trouble in MU games.

It's like this:

I LOVE not being able to predict plot twists and changes. If I am told about them beforehand, the RP is less exciting
I LOVE implementing plot twists, but half of the time some "but my story..." roleplayer gets mad because I didn't clear it with them beforehand (even if it doesn't involve their character)...and if I clear every plot twist ahead of time players tend to metagame it by having their character prepared for it.

So you're either being super careful and plotting out "surprises" that aren't surprising (thus, less fun) at all, or you open yourself up for cheese/metagaming/ooc issues.

The only TRUE answer I can see is to either save all of your plot twists and secrets for solo writing projects, or there need to be better-defined rules as to how players react to elements outside of their control and how this is okay to do. There's GOT to be some room for each player to embellish whatever they want without ten miles of red tape, though, right?

I literally struggled with this on every game I ever MUd.

Misadventure

@Ghost as staff, you are expected to provide secrets and twists and things they didn't prepare for.

I wonder what the real difference is?

Ghost

@Misadventure said in Hidden information and enjoyment:

I wonder what the real difference is?

I think it comes down to assumed role.

On a largely base level, people expect two things from a MU:

Staff to let them in (sheet, etc), deal with issues, provide guidance/wiki, and provide entertainment in the form of plot points
Other warm bodies to roleplay with, because whatever personal satisfaction is gained through this requires other human interaction to push back when they push

I think the arguments break out because Player A makes a decision that Player B doesn't like, B has invested in A and does not want to invest in the story change, and in some cases neither will be happy because B and A don't see eye to eye on the change.

Most players don't get cozy with staff PCs for a number of reasons, so there's less direct investment and intimacy affected when staff inserts plot change.

faraday

@Misadventure said in Hidden information and enjoyment:

you are expected to provide secrets and twists and things they didn't prepare for.

I've found that players are no better at accepting unwelcome plot twists/secrets from staff than they are from fellow players, and are just as content with stuff to do as they are "secrets and twists". But YMMV depending on the game.

@Ghost said in Hidden information and enjoyment:

It's really, really hard to do anything secret when it comes to "cooperative gaming/storytelling" without effectively neutering the sense of surprise. This got me in to regular trouble in MU games.

Well yeah - surprise and collaboration are kind of opposing goals. It's like if you're co-authoring a book, you don't suddenly show up one day and "SURPRISE PLOT TWIST!" to your writing partner. It's more like: "Hey, I came up with a cool plot twist - what do you think?" And even if you sketch out a plot, you still don't know exactly how the dialogue or dice will go. There's still an improv level of surprise to it.

I get where you're coming from, though. I've had loads of fun with TTRPG plot surprises. I just haven't seen that same kind of experience mirrored in MUs. Usually it just ends poorly.

@Ghost said in Hidden information and enjoyment:

if I clear every plot twist ahead of time players tend to metagame it by having their character prepared for it.

That's where the collaboration comes in. It's not about 'clearing' a plot twist with the other player, it's about working with them to achieve something that's mutually fun.

Obviously I'm glossing over a lot. If you're staff, you can't run every metaplot by committee. And as a player, sometimes you've got jerks who just won't compromise. But this is the ideal, for me.

Misadventure

@Ghost there are definitely issues between staff and players, and players and players about what the expectations are.

The topic was piqued for me over, as I mentioned, examples of play where the players were intent on sharing more internal state information than I usually see in MU* RP. To me, it fits the "newer" ideas category like game setups where the players are filling out the world, or actively creating their own IC situations and difficulties like a mix of a character-actor and show writer. There is more info put out, so people can get in on whatever, but also that's just the goal to create something like the experience of watching of a show for the players.

Given how hard that is at an established gaming table, it's unlikely to ever be seen in MU* RP.

Just food for thought on RP creation.