RL Anger

TNP

A long while ago, I was interested in learning more about trans issues. I might be a white guy but as a gay one, I was starting out definitely on their 'side' (their side being equality and the freedom to be who they were without being murdered).

I forget where it was I was reading, some board somewhere I'm thinking that I remember having rules about being a safe space. But I read various threads and one day I decided to ask some questions. And i was basically given links and told to read up on it. Someone also commented about getting tired of being an ambassador. There was more than that but this was the gist of it.

If I remember right (it was a while ago), my reaction was not 'ok sure, I'll get right on it'. It was more 'Hey, I'm trying to be on your side here. Give me a break and stop with the tone.' In other words, educate me and be nice about it or I'm not going to bother. So I may have been coming from a place of being marginalized in some ways but I was also feeling very entitled in others while still being completely sympathetic to their cause and issues. It's also where I first saw the link to Derailing For Dummies.

So I get both sides of this. I've been on both sides. And it takes a while for to really understand what Ninjakitten explained so well. It's a shame that didn't happen in the very start of this whole thing but it only really makes sense and hits home after the fact.

Arkandel

I value dialogue more than I do almost anything else. It's one of the foundation stones of civilization - we must be able to talk to each other even if we come from different places to begin with.

In the context of conversation it doesn't matter to me who I'm talking to; it's irrelevant if I like you or you like me, what your race or political affiliations are, if we have a past or not... I strive to be civil not for your sake or for my own but because that's the only way I know to be respectful to the act of exchanging ideas and viewpoints itself. I'd like to think that expecting the same courtesy isn't done out of spite or entitlement but perhaps I am wrong.

Either way I did not mean to offend anyone and I apologize since I seem to have done so. I just wanted to understand and maybe help out as I could. If it makes it any better perhaps I know more now than I did coming into the thread even if the route there was unexpected.

Ganymede

@Arkandel said in RL Anger:

In the context of conversation it doesn't matter to me who I'm talking to; it's irrelevant if I like you or you like me, what your race or political affiliations are, if we have a past or not... I strive to be civil not for your sake or for my own but because that's the only way I know to be respectful to the act of exchanging ideas and viewpoints itself. I'd like to think that expecting the same courtesy isn't done out of spite or entitlement but perhaps I am wrong.

You're not wrong for wanting civility, but I think you ought to expect that these sorts of topics will involve entering into a dialogue with people that have been systematically and violently suppressed. As such, if there is a genuine desire to help, then one must absorb the occasional unleashing of negative emotion.

Thenomain

Request: Someone to PM me a translation of what @Ninjakitten said. I no longer know who it is people think I am, nor what I'm allowed to ask without being offensive, what is okay to disagree with without being attacked. I'm serious. Thanks.

Ganymede

@Thenomain said in RL Anger:

Request: Someone to PM me a translation of what @Ninjakitten said. I no longer know who it is people think I am, nor what I'm allowed to ask without being offensive, what is okay to disagree with without being attacked. I'm serious. Thanks.

I'll attempt a public translation.

If you're one of the marginalized, it's okay to be tired and frustrated at being asked to explain your motivations and beliefs for the umpteenth time. There are people who genuinely want to help, who, by way of privilege, known or unknown, may not entirely understand or connect with what you're saying. Being frustrated with meeting an otherwise-intelligent person with this ignorance is reasonable.

If you're one of the ones that want to help, see the above. Understand that you're asking someone who has suffered for what may be decades to explain what they have already explained to family, friends, police officers, professors, etc. countless times. Don't badger; don't deflect; and please don't expect to be treated with the utmost patience. Just realize that you're entering into TOUCHY SUBJECT land, and go in, if you want to, with that the attendant knowledge and expectations.

Thenomain

@Ganymede

Then I'll respond publicly as well. So expect that you're surrounded by abuse victims.

That's ... really depressing. It really is.

I still have many issues about what just happened, tho, and I'm still afraid to express them. Which is also depressing. Oh well, time for my shitty job. Yay.

Arkandel

@Thenomain I am not afraid to say this:

It is easy to converse with people who are in complete agreement with you.

Thenomain

@Arkandel

When in the long time that you've known me here have I been afraid to air my opinions, right or wrong?

Arkandel

@Thenomain said in RL Anger:

@Arkandel

When in the long time that you've known me here have I been afraid to air my opinions, right or wrong?

Four minutes ago.

@Thenomain said in RL Anger:

I still have many issues about what just happened, tho, and I'm still afraid to express them.

Thenomain

@Arkandel

Exactly.

Kanye Qwest

I love what @Ninjakitten said. I find it hilarious that the responses so far are "I still feel pretty attacked but I mean I guess maybe I learned something? IDK what." and "Help I don't understand

@Ganymede said in RL Anger:

@Thenomain said in RL Anger:

Request: Someone to PM me a translation of what @Ninjakitten said. I no longer know who it is people think I am, nor what I'm allowed to ask without being offensive, what is okay to disagree with without being attacked. I'm serious. Thanks.

don't deflect; and please don't expect to be treated with the utmost patience.

Don't deflect, and please don't expect to be treated with the utmost patience

I mean, it's been said a dozen ways so far but yes, that is it distilled. You (the general you and the specific you, sure) feeling attacked is of lesser concern than what the discussion is actually about. Please stop trying to make everyone deal with it first.

Here's the thing: when you join a discussion about an issue that affects people who are not you, and you start policing tone instead of addressing the actual points people make ("Perjoratives aren't a way to convince anyone" or "being so angry and worked up doesn't accomplish anything" or "be civil!" or "Not me, not people I know, acknowledge that!") it makes it look like you are just here to get a consensus that YOU personally are ok, and not at fault, so that you can go back to not thinking about the plight of others.

If that's not what you're doing, I'm not surprised. But that IS what it looks like, and the way you are choosing to participate is the reason it looks that way.

Thenomain

@Kanye-Qwest

I say this in the least polite terms possible, but go to hell. Lithium and I were having two different arguments at each other, and I owned up to that. If you're not going to accept my explanation or apology, then kindly go fuck your self.

Tone? My "control of tone" was my asking her to stop attacking what was to me out of fucking nowhere. Or is my tone to you suddenly okay because, oh no! We can't tell people that they're acting irrationally! I'll remember that the next time @Ganymede tries to be reasonable. So you can grow a second dick and double-fuck yourself.

Arkandel

The way I see it, @Kanye-Qwest is the latest confirmation that ideas are not responsible for the people who believe in them.

Kanye Qwest

@Thenomain said in RL Anger:

@Kanye-Qwest

I say this in the least polite terms possible, but go to hell. Lithium and I were having two different arguments at each other, and I owned up to that. If you're not going to accept my explanation or apology, then kindly go fuck your self.

Tone? My "control of tone" was my asking her to stop attacking what was to me out of fucking nowhere. Or is my tone to you suddenly okay because, oh no! We can't tell people that they're acting irrationally! I'll remember that the next time @Ganymede tries to be reasonable. So you can grow a second dick and double-fuck yourself.

So we agree you've been basically tone policing for pages. Thanks for clearing that up.

Also, you didn't apologize to me (or need to), so ?? If you want me to listen to your thoughts and consider them seriously, you should take some time and respond when you aren't so hysterical. It's impossible to have a logical discussion with you when you are telling me to grow dicks and fuck myself. Actually, that isn't physically possible on either count. Yeesh, I guess that's what I get for trying to translate like you asked. I'm done.

Ganymede

@Kanye-Qwest said in RL Anger:

Here's the thing: when you join a discussion about an issue that affects people who are not you, and you start policing tone instead of addressing the actual points people make * * * it makes it look like you are just here to get a consensus that YOU personally are ok, and not at fault, so that you can go back to not thinking about the plight of others.

This is what it looks like to you, and perhaps others; however, I would not fault someone for not wanting to engage with people that will so readily jump to conclusions, no matter how understandable their reaction might be.

If there is to be meaningful communication -- that is, if meaningful communication is desired -- then there has to be an effort to make sure the other side understands the message conveyed. This isn't to say that one must communicate with everyone upon inquiry, or that not communicating is unreasonable due to the sensitive nature of the subject matter.

What I'm seeing: two camps of intelligent, insightful, and highly-communicative people trying to get from one another something which neither want to give at this time. Perhaps it would be best to cool everything out in the public forums for a few weeks.

I fully realize the irony of my statements.

Kanye Qwest

Prince is dead, and it sucks. Great musicians lost this year.

Vorpal

I have a theory that Sir Terry Pratchett is organizing the greatest concert of Music With Rocks In in the history of the universe.

Thenomain

@Kanye-Qwest

I'm done.

Promises promises.

Apos

@Thenomain You have no idea how much of a smug, entitled dipshit you come across as, do you? I mean I thought you just acted like it and didn't care, but your flailing about and demanding answers suggests you don't.

Thenomain

@Apos

Not demanding, no. Never demanded.