RL Anger
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Not just limited to gaming as a hobby, I have been harassed, groped, threatened, stalked, photographed without my consent, and almost abducted three times.
I've also been called a liar and arrogant for making those claims. Arrogant. Like my self-esteem is so broken and I'm so twisted that I would not only welcome but INVENT that kind of thing. It's enough to make a girl give up on sharing these experiences, and in a lot of cases? It does.
When I say these things do happen, it's because I know for a fact that they happen.
#notallmen - Of course not. Most people are decent, men included! We really need those decent men to step up more, instead of assuming a claim is unlikely because it hasn't been their experience. If that's you, high five and please do carry on.
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I'll be completely honest, though I am a little ashamed to admit it, if I ever saw something that constituted outright sexual harassment or assault (like slapping on the ass, or inappropriate groping, etc) there is a possibility that I'd resort to violence. I have a temper, and a lot of that temper is focused on defending other people. I was the kid that bullied/beat up bullies in school, and I have this very... seething rage over things I deem unjust or unfair.
Point being, that's a flaw of mine, and it never really has done anyone any good. Not even in the one case where it really mattered to me (which is a very personal story that I'm not gonna go into here). I think that talking about these things openly, honestly and realistically is the only real way to ever get anywhere with it. I also do hold hope for the future, since I see the general attitudes of younger players (to me younger equates to 20's and below) shifting away from this kind of mentality and becoming more, generally socially progressive.
I am really curious, though, like Arkandel, about the experience of females (or perceived females) and other minorities or traditionally marginalized groups in the online community. Has this kind of behavior been the norm for you on MU*s? Is it something you experience more RL when gaming and less online or more?
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@ShelBeast said:
There are parts that, admittedly, seem completely the result of over-exaggeration and/or pure fabrication... I don't want to marginalize the message, because it's a valid one, but yeah... Too much scare tactic. Personally, I find it very, very difficult to believe that a 13 year old girl not only gets openly told by a shopkeeper "old enough to bleed, old enough to breed", but then that a whole cadre of cronies would start chanting it like a mantra. Not unless the store just openly says "Pedophile Comics and Games" on the window. There's simply too many people, of all genders, who are very sensitive/hostile to the very thought of sexually abusing minors. Plus, it just reeks of caricature, not character, if that makes sense.
I mean, ask most women the youngest they can remember being harassed by an adult man, and a lot of them will say younger than 14. The first time I can remember getting catcalled I was probably 12. I've heard from women who developed early who got it as young as like 10. This isn't the exception; it's the rule.
To be frank, for those of you saying you've never seen it happen, or that it doesn't happen in your particular circle: that's not actually important. Because
@Arkandel said:
I am not disputing things like that happen. But are you going to say reports of them not happening should be silenced? If nothing else that could indicate the scale of sexual harassment within a community - whether, in other words, such behavior is typical or isolated. If on the other hand some of us - especially of the female persuasion - have then it would be an indication of the opposite.
It's really, really not isolated. Like, I literally don't think I know a woman who hasn't experienced some sort of harassment based on her gender within the geek and gamer sphere, and as a female geek, I certainly know a lot of them.
@ShelBeast said:
I am really curious, though, like Arkandel, about the experience of females (or perceived females) and other minorities or traditionally marginalized groups in the online community. Has this kind of behavior been the norm for you on MU*s? Is it something you experience more RL when gaming and less online or more?
The vitriol is a lot, lot higher online. I mean, I don't go a week without getting harassed IRL, and I've been made to feel extremely uncomfortable, skeeved, gross, and at the worse highly unsafe.
No one's ever told me to go kill myself or called me a cunt in real life. It's happened online for expressing opinions men don't like. (I think the worst was daring to say I didn't really think Joss Whedon's stuff was as feminist as he likes to claim.)
I can say that what I've experienced on MU*s has been less direct and more along the lines of atmospheric sexism (hah hah, let's trade sexy pics back and forth and talk about boobs). But I've also spent most of the past decade running games with other women where we generally are going to tell people to knock it off if they do stuff like that. Because that's -- kind of what women do: try to build their own communities where they can feel safe.
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@Roz said:
I mean, ask most women the youngest they can remember being harassed by an adult man, and a lot of them will say younger than 14. The first time I can remember getting catcalled I was probably 12. I've heard from women who developed early who got it as young as like 10. This isn't the exception; it's the rule.
I get that this young girls get hit on/harassed/cat called, etc. all the time. My issue with the example that I was referring to was very specific in the cartoonish nature of a person running a shop, with a professional reputation and financial stability on the line, openly being so overly crude and then not only is that accepted, but joined in like some cult mantra of a bunch of guys chanting it over and over again at the girl. That /very specific/ example seems very, very far fetched to me, due to what I see as a very common aversion in the general populace towards the sexual predation of children. I mean, even in prison, child molesters are the anathema and in the most danger from other inmates. I don't doubt, for a minute, that a shopkeeper could/would say something gross and inappropriate to a young girl, but I'd be more apt to believe that they'd say it in private, for the sake of being able to deny having said it.
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@ShelBeast That's funny, because guys may find it far-fetched, but as a woman I find it disgusting and not at all unlikely.
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Preach.
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Why do guys always find it so hard to believe that events exist outside of your experience? Why is it that it doesn't matter how many women talk about these issues, there are always guys lining up to talk about how we're exaggerating?
Here's the reality: women have so much more to gain by being silent. Talking about these issues inevitably ends up with more ugliness, either to mild or horrific degrees. The only thing women have to gain here is hoping that eventually we can speak up enough that things will be better for future generations after we take a whole lot of bullshit, skepticism, accusation of lying, harassment, and death and rape threats.
Is that really the sort of attention guys think women are making these claims for?
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@Roz
I don't know. When I was very young, I personally heard BOTH "old enough to bleed, old enough to breed" and "if there's grass on the field, play ball", to a chorus of snickers from the guys around.It isn't farfetched at all.
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Whether this is anecdotal or not I've no idea, but a difference in MU*s and a lot of other online interaction I've had (around gaming stuff in particularly) is that the male/female ratio tends to be more evenly split on the games I've played. Or even female-majority on some games. I've certainly been creepily harassed, and I have friends who have horror stories of more active stalkers, but it's not really comparable to how uncomfortable I've been in other corners of the Internet, where the level of vitriol seems actively designed to make women not participate at all.
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@Roz said:
(I think the worst was daring to say I didn't really think Joss Whedon's stuff was as feminist as he likes to claim.)>
I know way off the topic but Joss Whedon''s stuff is feminist? I have never seen that at all, though I am speaking as a guy.
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@ThatGuyThere said:
@Roz said:
(I think the worst was daring to say I didn't really think Joss Whedon's stuff was as feminist as he likes to claim.)>
I know way off the topic but Joss Whedon''s stuff is feminist? I have never seen that at all, though I am speaking as a guy.
I don't want to get into it right now because off-topic but he certainly enjoys that reputation.
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Every woman I know has stories like this, ranging from relatively minor stuff to the outright horrifying. It's not far-fetched, it's reality. People in reality behave in many very stupid ways that seem counterintuitive or against their own best interests. Some people vote for Donald Trump.
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I'm honestly kind of sad that women have to deal with this just to enjoy a freaking hobby. Cops tend to be terrible at how they handle harassment and rape, and it's - yeah.
I think Apos is pretty right. Though, I really twitch at GamerGaters and SadPuppies people (lol @ being upset that Sci-Fi is 'too progressive'.).
Even look at the problem of assholes who try to get upskirt, breast and panty shots at cons on the sly.
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@ShelBeast said:
I am really curious, though, like Arkandel, about the experience of females (or perceived females) and other minorities or traditionally marginalized groups in the online community. Has this kind of behavior been the norm for you on MU*s? Is it something you experience more RL when gaming and less online or more?
From my personal experience: No on both counts (gender and ethnicity, specifically), but that's probably because neither of those comes up very often, if at all, in all the years that I have been Mushing. In this day and age I suspect that I am in the minority of people who don't associate with online people in RL; I have online friends whom I've known for over a decade and talked to on a daily basis, yet I don't know their RL names or ever seen their faces - but it does eliminate a lot of potential harassment problems described here.
I will add that Mushing and other online activities are very different though. I have only started actively playing MMORPGs in the last three years or so, and by comparison there has been no shortage of guys PMing me with "R U a girl in RL?", "whats your name" and "hi I live in XXX, where do you live?" Most of them are just being friendly, or at least that's how they perceive themselves to be acting, but once in a while it gets weird.
Caveat: The above doesn't apply to places like Shangrila. If you choose to play there as a woman, or even just a female character, all bets are off. Back when I played there (I still have a couple of lingering PC bits, but I don't really go there anymore) I ran into my share of ridiculous stalkers and harassers. So if you don't want to be harassed, do not go to places like Shangrila.
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Agreed w/@scissors. I've not run into issues as a woman on MU**s. But I've also only played on games that were incredibly female dominated or, in one memorable case, roughly m/f equivalent. I have run into bad experiences on forums, on twitter, during my brief period of time playing on MMOs rather than singleplayer games.
My comic shop is a safe space with a welcoming, supportive environment and multiple employees who are either female or visibly genderqueer. My tabletop group is full of dudes but they are quite well-behaved.
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I remember when I started roleplaying online I was struck by how many women there were, especially in comparison to men. There tends to be more women than men.
And then I grew up a year or two and realized: well, of course there's more women in roleplaying online than real life--in real life, they have to deal with assholes face to face. And believe me: gamers can be just as much assholes as anyone else, and the gaming community is notoriously misogynyst--GamerGate attitudes are not relegated to video game culture, after all.
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I often wonder if there actually is more of a gender balance on MUs, or if the women are just more visible. By which I mean, on the average MU people talk, even if it's to a minimal degree, about who they are OOCly in ways that aren't really remarkable. It just comes up in casual conversation that's not directly related to me being a woman or feminist or whatever. Less so other places I've interacted online. It's easy to assume a forum is male-dominated if the loudest and most frequent posters are men, which creates a circle-jerk when topics like GamerGate come up that can make an environment really toxic to interact with if you're female, so you default to lurking because who the fuck wants to deal with the aggravation.
But this is just a theory I have no way to prove, because you can't measure non-participation or the reasons for it.
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I find the gaming store scenario believable. In part because I've heard very similar comments. But also, and this is what makes me so angry--frankly, because my 14 year old has been a gaming fan and geek for years, and I've seen how people have treated her from the time she was 11 and getting into cosplay, and later on in gaming community commentary. When your daughter shows you an email full of disgusting threats and things someone wants to do to her that she doesn't even /know what they are/ because they disagree with her on how a game should have ended or wanting to see more "normal girl" character options, when you find yourself steering her away from certain cons or having to double think about cosplay stuff, because you know what's out there...
It's nice that some people can't even fucking imagine anyone saying "if she bleeds she can breed" grossness to a 13 year old. I'm going to guess though that /you don't have one/. Well, I can't not fucking imagine it, because I've seen many things like it. Directed at mine, and her friends, and at other slightly older but still very young kids in "gamer geek territory" and outside it. And fuck yes the mama bear comes right the fuck out. (And I research any new place like whoa before we do). I /envy/ you if you can't imagine it.
I have not experienced the same online (though I know of others that have). For me anyway, while I may be very hurt by actions by someone I considered a friend, I'm also more confident at just turning the machine off, not responding on skype/email, ect. And as others have mentioned, it's easy to find a large female population on MUSHes. I've said many times, that one of the biggest things I love about MUSHing is the large community of other women around my age where I don't have to worry about this nonsense with. And at the very least, at least there I can just turn off the machine, and be pissed off for awhile and calm down before then filing a complaint (or just leaving altogether if I know it will be blown off), rather than having to then be hopped up on adrenaline with my car key prongs stuck outward between my fingers as I go alternative routes back to my car.
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@Three-Eyed-Crow said:
I often wonder if there actually is more of a gender balance on MUs, or if the women are just more visible. By which I mean, on the average MU people talk, even if it's to a minimal degree, about who they are OOCly in ways that aren't really remarkable. It just comes up in casual conversation that's not directly related to me being a woman or feminist or whatever. Less so other places I've interacted online. It's easy to assume a forum is male-dominated if the loudest and most frequent posters are men, which creates a circle-jerk when topics like GamerGate come up that can make an environment really toxic to interact with if you're female, so you default to lurking because who the fuck wants to deal with the aggravation.
But this is just a theory I have no way to prove, because you can't measure non-participation or the reasons for it.
In my experience, as a ballpark estimate, I think women are more common. Like, for example, I chose my staffers for Eldritch based on who was willing and available. It ended up being, across the duration of the game: 2 male headstaffers, 1 female headstaffer, and then 1 male staffer and 4 female staffers, and it would have been 5 if one person had stayed, who left before opening. Of the people who offered to help and whom I turned down, I didn't turn down more men than I did women (if anything, the opposite is true). And that's just a short-lived, small game.
Unfortunately, a true census is very difficult (perhaps impossible). But that's my impression.
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@Three-Eyed-Crow It would certainly match the studies that have been done in places like classrooms where the class experience women as "dominating the conversation" if they speak literally like 30% of the time. (The percentage was even lower for what they viewed as women speaking an equal amount of time.)
@mietze I wish I could upvote you more than once.
