WoD MUSH Comparison?

Sunny

@Sunny

WoD is one thing, but this is actually dramatically different in several other genres. It's not an entirely reasonable issue across the board -- it might be entirely reasonable within the context of the games you enjoy/play on/play in, but it's nowhere near as universal as you're presenting it.

WoD, D&D, Pathfinder, Shadowrun, basically any game where potentially lethal conflict is pretty common.

D&D is included in here, as well as Pathfinder. Pern.. Many many original fantasy mushes. This is a cultural difference, it is not universal. And guess what? These games don't have the problems you're referring to, because the culture is vastly different.

My condolences. Like I said, there's going to be people for whom it's not an issue. If you're one of them, more power to you.

Uh, why? Condolences? I've no need for those. You're accusing Coin of ignoring shit while doing the exact same thing yourself. You are referring to a personal preference, here. A very specific genre of mushes have this culture, but it is not universal, and I'm not some weird exception in those other genres. That's just how they are. It's not 'a few people' don't have issues with it, it's a whole host of non-WoD players. You're wrong, man. This is your opinion, not fact, and again, it absolutely isn't universal. There's also no problem with that, just because you don't like it.

TR was used as an example because it's the single largest game that @Coin and I both played on the most recently. Since it's been a thing at basically every MU* and tabletop game I've ever played in, I could make the list more expansive, but I didn't think it was really necessary.

So, here's the deal, man. I am not saying that this isn't the case, that these aren't your experiences, that this isn't your opinion. I agree with you; in the WoD genre, this is how it is. What I am saying is that there are completely different mushing cultures out there that you apparently haven't been exposed to at all, and saying that this perspective is universal is flat out wrong. It happens on other games, and it works on other games. Quite well, with everyone having plenty of fun.

Since you're just ignoring shit and repeating yourself, I'll bow out.

Pot. Kettle. Black.

BallisticOrange

@2mspris Is it possible to get an address?

2mspris

@BallisticOrange safeharbor.mooo.com port 9100

Ganymede

@HelloRaptor said:

Yeah. Storytellers bringing their own characters is a recipe for making other players feel awkward.

This can be true, but so can the opposite.

Might as well toss in and give it a shot. I concur with @Coin. The entire fucking game is about trust, and with the proper code and policies in place, there's no reason why staff can't set their own XP requests.

Ganymede

@Spawnblade said:

@Ganymede - I enjoy the idea of a multi-sphere world, but only when the spheres aren't isolated from one another. However, I do enjoy Vampire more than most spheres, even if some of the lore feels restrictive (never came to terms with the idea of playing a creature that was, in turn, playing at being human stuck in time, incapable of true change from its original personality.) Can't remember if Blood and Smoke loosened that a bit. I didn't know about that Off-Screen System. Just read up on it and find it quite interesting. Seems it would help lighten the load on staff while still aiding in fleshing out a true Vampire experience. Thanks for the recommendation!

No problem. If you have questions about the game, and I'm online, feel free to page me; I play Cai.

HelloRaptor

@Ganymede said:

@HelloRaptor said:

Yeah. Storytellers bringing their own characters is a recipe for making other players feel awkward.

This can be true, but so can the opposite.

Might as well toss in and give it a shot. I concur with @Coin. The entire fucking game is about trust, and with the proper code and policies in place, there's no reason why staff can't set their own XP requests.

And set their own notes, and judge their own scenes. PVP even.

If it's just about trust, and you trust the people involved, these should be no problem. Maybe they aren't, to you. I personally see it as having to do with shit other than trust, but I appear to be in the minority here.

3543thrh67

If the people in the scene feel it is a fair and just response? Why not let them do all that?

Arkandel

I'm not telling anyone how it should be done. If people are comfortable Storytelling scenes their PC is in, more power to them. If I know them I probably wouldn't have an issue going along with it, either.

I wouldn't feel comfortable doing it myself. It's as simple as that.

mietze

I tend to avoid STing with my PC involved unless it's for a small group that is like a playgroup ( (pack/coterie/motley) and there's only me or maybe one other person who's comfortable STing so there's no real chance of round-robining and there's no game- or sphere-wide implications. So--a scene where we defend our territory against an NPC threat of about the same power level? Our group of friends goes to investigate a creepy house Yes! Some thing where some giant Thing shows up and starts smashing up an area of DT and we really should be in the news for it or it might have ripple effects beyond the group? No.

I understand the viewpoint that it's about trust. I think where my discomfort comes from is not that I'm afraid that I would do something wrong (I know that if anything I'll err on the cautious side, in regards to rewards, ect.) but more that I like a buffer of the appearance of fairness too. I'm able to relax more and enjoy myself with that layer of protection. It doesn't stop people bitching about what they are going to bitch about (favortism, or whatever), but having refereed a lot of that shit staffing various places, it's colored my view about wanting some separation so that it's a easy call for staff (ST isn't involving their PC, rewards cleared by staff, ect) to tell them to get bent.

Ganymede

@HelloRaptor said:

And set their own notes, and judge their own scenes. PVP even.

If it's just about trust, and you trust the people involved, these should be no problem. Maybe they aren't, to you. I personally see it as having to do with shit other than trust, but I appear to be in the minority here.

Sure. Make the +notes public. Make a 'log or it didn't happen' policy. Transparency helps to build trust.

Of course, no. Why do that? Let's just stick to the way we've been doing shit for years, pretending that players can't trust staff, and vice versa.

Sunny

@Ganymede said:

@HelloRaptor said:

And set their own notes, and judge their own scenes. PVP even.

If it's just about trust, and you trust the people involved, these should be no problem. Maybe they aren't, to you. I personally see it as having to do with shit other than trust, but I appear to be in the minority here.

Sure. Make the +notes public. Make a 'log or it didn't happen' policy. Transparency helps to build trust.

Of course, no. Why do that? Let's just stick to the way we've been doing shit for years, pretending that players can't trust staff, and vice versa.

This. A thousand times this. We really need to start treating one another like trustworthy adults, and then deal with the people that end up abusing that swiftly and permanently.

HelloRaptor

@Ganymede said:

@HelloRaptor said:

And set their own notes, and judge their own scenes. PVP even.

If it's just about trust, and you trust the people involved, these should be no problem. Maybe they aren't, to you. I personally see it as having to do with shit other than trust, but I appear to be in the minority here.

Sure. Make the +notes public. Make a 'log or it didn't happen' policy. Transparency helps to build trust.

Of course, no. Why do that? Let's just stick to the way we've been doing shit for years, pretending that players can't trust staff, and vice versa.

You're right. All the games should do that. Everyone will be completely reassured and we can all live happily in an ideal paradise. I look forward to the day that the world embraces that ideal, and we can have referees playing on one of the teams they're officiating for. Because as long as they're trustworthy, there's no possible way their direct involvement could influence their calls.

I was a fool to have doubted your vision.

Thenomain

Really you two, mashing your logical fallacies together like they're going to have logic babies. There's a reason logic incest isn't good for mankind!

Ganymede

@HelloRaptor said:

Because as long as they're trustworthy, there's no possible way their direct involvement could influence their calls.

I didn't deny the substantial influence that authority or affluence brings. That's always a threat. Transparency makes that threat more open. No policy will ever cause a sane person on a game to ignore the potential for abuse that staffers have.

That risk exists in tabletop, and will always exist where there's a Storyteller and no absolute rule of dice.

All I'm suggesting is that we stop calmly red-lining initiatives to give staff a little more faith as a matter of course. We've been kidding ourselves that we can curb abuses through policies or code.

Derp

@mietze said:

I tend to avoid STing with my PC involved unless it's for a small group that is like a playgroup ( (pack/coterie/motley) and there's only me or maybe one other person who's comfortable STing so there's no real chance of round-robining and there's no game- or sphere-wide implications.

I generally agree with you, save for one difference. Even if there is a chance of round-robining it, leaving out people all the time and having to figure out reasons for that is especially taxing, and there will always be those characters who are like 'you aren't pulling your weight' when the STing inevitably leans heavier on one person than another. Packs and groups of things like that, your character should absolutely be there, and you guys can even co-ST stuff. One of the most fun things I've ever done in a MU with another person was just two people, RPing basically at randing, playing off of each other's poses to create a story involving two characters. It turned out to be an intensely eerie scene. It was great. We just judged stuff for each other, and cooperated. There is nothing saying in the rules that you absolutely have to be killing each other all the time. It's about the fun.

@Ganymede said:

All I'm suggesting is that we stop calmly red-lining initiatives to give staff a little more faith as a matter of course. We've been kidding ourselves that we can curb abuses through policies or code.

Frankly, the code has come far enough that unless you have access to God and the server itself, cheating is next to impossible. With everything backed up through SQL and such, not stored on the game itself, it's next to literally impossible to cheat with things like xp. Staffers could do their own xp jobs just with other staffers occasionally peeking at their xp/log. I'm not advocating this on any current games, mind you. The policies are there and still in place, even if they're not written. It's just considered good etiquette. But it could be done with very little overhead or worry, unless your game-head is the one with their fingers in the pies, and then let's face it, you're kinda screwed anyway.

Staff can generally be trusted to administrate fairly. It's the split-second judgment calls that sometimes need to be reviewed. They're all players on the same game, after all, and all have an investment in making sure the playing field starts level and stays that way.

TNP

I never ST. I hate STing. I suck at STing, hence hating it. No, really. It has nothing to do with knowing mechanics. I pick those up sooner or later. I just really, really suck at running plots. I can organize the damn things just fine. Hopefully, I play in them even better. But running them is just not part of my skill set. I've been in this hobby for decades but that hasn't changed. It kind of sucks, actually.

HelloRaptor

@Derp

Frankly, the code has come far enough that unless you have access to God and the server itself, cheating is next to impossible. With everything backed up through SQL and such, not stored on the game itself, it's next to literally impossible to cheat with things like xp. Staffers could do their own xp jobs just with other staffers occasionally peeking at their xp/log.

I needed a good laugh. Way to go, I appreciate it.

Derp

@HelloRaptor said:

@Derp

Frankly, the code has come far enough that unless you have access to God and the server itself, cheating is next to impossible. With everything backed up through SQL and such, not stored on the game itself, it's next to literally impossible to cheat with things like xp. Staffers could do their own xp jobs just with other staffers occasionally peeking at their xp/log.

I needed a good laugh. Way to go, I appreciate it.

I live for your entertainment.

Corruption

@Coin - If you have Changeling 2.0 I WILL play even if it screws me for time to do RL stuff I want to do. Talk about games I want badly.

My Eldrich werewolf is going really well. I'm having trouble getting into my vampire, which makes me sad because it really is a good character. I may have to let him go to free the slot for someone who'll use it harder tho.

Eldrich = A+++, though. And I'm a jaded Dino, too. Still saying that.

Thenomain

Reminder to self: Lock down SQL commands further, because as much as it pains me to say so, What HR Said.

Outside the code perspective, @Derp, you're asking staff to take on more administrative duties. This generally (generally, mind you) doesn't work partially because nobody has the time for that and partially because there is nobody with the authority to enforce whatever rules you might come up with except for, ultimately, the person who knows how to pull the banhammer, and that's mainly the person with the password to the #1 God Bit. Game culture starts at the top.

I know what it's like to see a purple-skied world full of sweetness and perfection, but as a constructive note, I don't think you know what you're talking about.